I just noticed something about ghenghis

Iceberg1er

Chieftain
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Apr 4, 2024
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He needs a true earth map. I started the game... And I was on the coast in like nice moderate weather almost tropical.

I got absolutely no sense of I was the monghilsbin the center of a vast and hostile plain. Doesn't feel like I'm monghil or ghbegis Khan etc. like just bland no civilation difference at all in any way. A little bit of renaming of buildables, and a correct map and boom is feel it but nope nothing at all felt like I just started another exact same game. I was excited because I just noticed the new characters had no idea they make it so weird to find and download and play I had to restart twice for him to appear
 
He needs a true earth map. I started the game... And I was on the coast in like nice moderate weather almost tropical.

I got absolutely no sense of I was the monghilsbin the center of a vast and hostile plain. Doesn't feel like I'm monghil or ghbegis Khan etc. like just bland no civilation difference at all in any way. A little bit of renaming of buildables, and a correct map and boom is feel it but nope nothing at all felt like I just started another exact same game. I was excited because I just noticed the new characters had no idea they make it so weird to find and download and play I had to restart twice for him to appear

I've never gotten a sense of being a monghilsbin or a ghbegis either. :D:p

Seriously though, I feel this is the problem for most civs in this game. I restart often to get a start that makes me 'feel' like it belongs to my civ. Civ VI felt more like that in my opinion, where I got bonuses from hills, or trees, and was put there.

I see people quoting how they like combinations or post screenshots of yields and how they got there, but I just don't get the sense of any "this is what I'll be doing that makes my empire greater than the others". It's really hard to put a finger on for me.
 
I've never gotten a sense of being a monghilsbin or a ghbegis either. :D:p

Seriously though, I feel this is the problem for most civs in this game. I restart often to get a start that makes me 'feel' like it belongs to my civ. Civ VI felt more like that in my opinion, where I got bonuses from hills, or trees, and was put there.

I see people quoting how they like combinations or post screenshots of yields and how they got there, but I just don't get the sense of any "this is what I'll be doing that makes my empire greater than the others". It's really hard to put a finger on for me.
Civ has had a problem with starting positions being in any way relevant to the Civ or its attributes and bonuses since at least Civ IV, and Civ VII is no better. I still remember restarting Civ VI or Civ V 10 times or more trying to get a coastal start for England or Norway/Vikings or a desert start for Morocco or Nubia.

Civ VII's version seems to be a Tundra/Taiga start for everybody except Maya or Maurya or Trung Trac. With anybody else I get a Tundra/Taiga start well over half the time and if I restart more than twice I will get a High Latitude start every single time.

And, as you say, the sunny hills of Rome just don't feel right covered with snow and evergreen taiga forests, no matter what kind of bonuses the game gives me for that terrain.

I think part of, if not the fundamental, problem is the terrain bonuses, which are artificial and apparently designed to make every biome both useful and distinct: as if the difference between a forest of conifers and a forest of hardwood deciduous trees was Game Changing for any Civ.

Also, the fact that almost no Civ (so far) can fundamentally change the bonuses they receive from any biome in the game, no matter how long they live there, unless that change is built in to their Game Description. No matter how clever the Mississippians are, they cannot get anything out of a forest that the Mongols or Persians can't, despite those two groups being almost totally unfamiliar with a forest environment in reality (and the fact that the North American woodland natives that include both the Mississippians and Shawnee had well-established methods of cultivating and managing the forest to get the most out of it, which resulted in a very artificial environment that Europeans didn't even recognize as artificial!)

I'e suggested before, given the Civ games' utter inability to handle the starting biome problem, that I would prefer that the starting sequence was changed to reflect the fact that Some Civs Belong In Some Environments. That is, the Start Sequence should be:

Pick your map type and characteristics (and let's include options like an overall dry, or wet, or cold, or hot map)
Show the start position on that map.
Pick your Civ from a list of Civs that roughly match that biome - or not, as you chose. But if you want to play Mongols on a dry, cold plain that should be up to you, not the whims of map generation that are gratingly random.
 
Civ has had a problem with starting positions being in any way relevant to the Civ or its attributes and bonuses since at least Civ IV, and Civ VII is no better.

And in Civ 7 the problem is further exacerbated due to the fact that your leader and civ might have different terrain preferences!

It often feels like a roll of the dice...
The only time I reload is when I get an out of whack biome, say tundra with no rivers when I'm Hatsepshut with Egypt!
 
I've been an advocate for letting players pick their starting bias as an advanced setup option. Especially when later civs also have start biases. For example Songhai and Nepal are two later civs that I quite enjoy, but my starting terrain can severely curtail my ability to plan for a game featuring them.
 
Also, the fact that almost no Civ (so far) can fundamentally change the bonuses they receive from any biome in the game, no matter how long they live there, unless that change is built in to their Game Description. No matter how clever the Mississippians are, they cannot get anything out of a forest that the Mongols or Persians can't, despite those two groups being almost totally unfamiliar with a forest environment in reality (and the fact that the North American woodland natives that include both the Mississippians and Shawnee had well-established methods of cultivating and managing the forest to get the most out of it, which resulted in a very artificial environment that Europeans didn't even recognize as artificial!)
I had hoped that Civ Switching would help this, but I guess the Civilizations with specific terrain boni just aren't appealing enough compared to the generally strong or "historical" choices. I think a lot of players also open the game with a plan of what "build" they're going for, and so they stick to that path no matter what.
 
Yeah, this is important for the feeling. That‘s why i cannot play on generic maps, i play only on TSL Earth maps.

And i really hope they will add mechanics, so that civs like the Mississippians can get out more of a forest than the Mongols etc.
This should be in Civ by default actually.
 
Yeah, this is important for the feeling. That‘s why i cannot play on generic maps, i play only on TSL Earth maps.

And i really hope they will add mechanics, so that civs like the Mississippians can get out more of a forest than the Mongols etc.
This should be in Civ by default actually.
I hesitate to add yet another attribute to the already large Civilization ability list, but perhaps an additional "tag" (Pastoral = Plains, Agrarian = Grasslands, Maritime = Coast, etc.) that adds, say, +1 Happiness or maybe +1 Food (Culture would be thematically appropriate but likely too strong) on a specific terrain/vegetation combo would do a bit for that? Maybe persisting on Urban Districts? Not a huge bonus, just a bit of encouragement to settle that type of land, even if the Civilization wants to focus on something other than terrain for its bonuses. It would work better in VII than in VI because the lack of chopping means that you can distinguish between, say, Vegetated Plains or non-Vegetated Plains without the latter getting the additional advantage of being able to terraform the former into it.
 
I hesitate to add yet another attribute to the already large Civilization ability list, but perhaps an additional "tag" (Pastoral = Plains, Agrarian = Grasslands, Maritime = Coast, etc.) that adds, say, +1 Happiness or maybe +1 Food (Culture would be thematically appropriate but likely too strong) on a specific terrain/vegetation combo would do a bit for that? Maybe persisting on Urban Districts? Not a huge bonus, just a bit of encouragement to settle that type of land, even if the Civilization wants to focus on something other than terrain for its bonuses. It would work better in VII than in VI because the lack of chopping means that you can distinguish between, say, Vegetated Plains or non-Vegetated Plains without the latter getting the additional advantage of being able to terraform the former into it.
I wouldn’t be so cautious, i remember in Civ5 the Iroquois civ were able to make a lot of production output from forests. This helped to gave them identity, in my opinion. Also, the „large“ civ ability list… i think it‘s something positive to have civs with a lot of uniques, in order to… give them identity? I believe so. :)
 
I wouldn’t be so cautious, i remember in Civ5 the Iroquois civ were able to make a lot of production output from forests. This helped to gave them identity, in my opinion. Also, the „large“ civ ability list… i think it‘s something positive to have civs with a lot of uniques, in order to… give them identity? I believe so. :)

Didn't forests also serves as roads to them? I thought that gave them so much identity.

In my current game I'm playing Tubman as Egypt. Spawned next to two gorgeous navigable rivers, but no desert tile anywhere adjacent to them, so no pyramids for Egypt...
 
Didn't forests also serves as roads to them? I thought that gave them so much identity.

In my current game I'm playing Tubman as Egypt. Spawned next to two gorgeous navigable rivers, but no desert tile anywhere adjacent to them, so no pyramids for Egypt...
You‘re right, the production bonus in forests came from the Iroquois Unique Building, the Longhouse, not directly from the civ ability.

Such situations can only happen with generic maps. :)
 
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