I just want CIV 5 to be a joyful game

H

hclass

Prince
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
518
I want

1. to be able to start playing with a reveal map, I find that more strategic. I don't mind I am marked cheater in the score page. Just give it an option (no MOD please)
2. to be able to do terrain transforming and do it quite quickly and easily. e.g. I can flatten a hill/mountain in less than 10 turns, dig a lake out on plain in 3 turns etc.
3. grab a joyful reward when I capture an opponent's city. For example, there will be no loss of population, earn one or more opponent's tech, grab some gold etc. i.e. make capturing an opponent city a real pleasure instead of a something sick and stinck that I need to repair/ wait for recovery.
4. to be able to count the number of cities in my empire... this seems minor feature, but I have never seen a counter column in city management view of Civ3 and Civ4... I remember I stop playing CIV4 (the last CIV4 game I play) because I was frustrated by the fact that it is so hard to count the total number of cities I have built + conquered...

Btw, I don't mind AI players are given all the same joys as above.

One last thing, could it be possible that I am also given a BIG RED button name - the GOD button, where when I am really depressed, say when I know I got no hope in winning a conquest victory (even though I am ahead of all the AI opponents), pressing that button will let me win immediately... (again I don't mind I am marked winner of GOD button on the score page)... ah ha ha

...
...
...

I wish CIV5 will achive the ultimate philosophy of computer game (give its player lot of joyful experience), meaning when I am allowed to do something, I can DO it to the maximum extend, at will... which really make me HAPPY!... instead of many of the "you can't do this and you can't do that because those are considered exploits", so many stupid restrictions being used as a measure to claim Civ game is very challenging...
 
personally all those features you just mentioned would make me hate ciV because I would feel like I was cheating the whole time. it would also be to easy to win so there would be no incentive to play again.

On the God button: I would only ever win with the god button if that was implemented because in every game i play there is always some point in every game where I feel no matter how well i am doing I cant win. despite this feeling I always win these games.
 
Maybe the 'God button' could just obliterate the armies of all the other civ's. :crazyeye:
 
hclass said:
I want

1. to be able to start playing with a reveal map, I find that more strategic. I don't mind I am marked cheater in the score page. Just give it an option (no MOD please)
2. to be able to do terrain transforming and do it quite quickly and easily. e.g. I can flatten a hill/mountain in less than 10 turns, dig a lake out on plain in 3 turns etc.
3. grab a joyful reward when I capture an opponent's city. For example, there will be no loss of population, earn one or more opponent's tech, grab some gold etc. i.e. make capturing an opponent city a real pleasure instead of a something sick and stinck that I need to repair/ wait for recovery.
4. to be able to count the number of cities in my empire... this seems minor feature, but I have never seen a counter column in city management view of Civ3 and Civ4... I remember I stop playing CIV4 (the last CIV4 game I play) because I was frustrated by the fact that it is so hard to count the total number of cities I have built + conquered...
Click to expand...


It sounds like you just want the game to be easier, not joyful. Because many people wouldn't find the ease of the God button, cities that almost greets you as a liberator when you conquer it, easy terraforming, and probably the Deity setting be equal to "Noble" in Civ IV.

The only thing that is probably needed in your list is the # of cities displayed like it is in the BUG mod.

Really, if you want to cheat, just jump into world builder or something.
 
deanej said:
Civ5's worldbuilder will be separate, though, so those of us that want an easier game will need something else.
Click to expand...

But it seems to me is that if you find a difficulty setting too hard, you'll jump down a level anyway unless you don't even want to play the game in the first place.
 
Ah! I forget one more crucial request: Make sure there is always a great reward for every Tech researched.
I remember, it all started with Civ3 when we have several Tech that serve purely as prerequisite of further Tech pursue (and if my memory serves me well, there are still such techs, though fewer in Civ4)... That was a totally crap piece of work, to me it is simply the most lazy way in aligning Tech advance to other events in the game.

Lets talk about my requested features which sound "easier" to those who like to torture themselve for reasons which I will never understand. Remember this as I have stated in the previous post:

"Btw, I don't mind AI players are given all the same joys as above."
(The word joys in the above statement could mean "easier" or human player "advantage", feel free to choose whichever you prefer)

If AI players can DO the same (so claimed features that will make the game easier) as human player, I don't see how those things can make the game easier to win... I mean, those features are making things easier for both sides - human and AI players as well, so there isn't any chance it will ease either side to win. (and the great thing is, it brings joys to human player without taking any advantage, since AI too can do the same)

Firaxis always claimed they have offered a better AI in every new version of CIV... to me, they didn't, indeed.
Firaxis should try to code AI to take advantage through certain features just like human player will.
But, my experience tells me, instead of making AI players act as smart as we (human player), they restrict us from doing many great things simply because AI player won't be able to do the same.

The idea that a game has to be "difficult" (torturing human player) in order to make it more challenging is just STUPID.

To those who can't understand what really make a computer game "challeging", please see the example in my next post.

Example:
--------
Nowadays, there are a lot of computer International Chess games in the market (example Fritz), some of them are offering level, so high where no ordinary player can beat the AI (it is even difficult to be beaten by the world best professional players). If you raise the difficulty level of the game, the Chess rule and the set of chess tokens yo start with all remain the smae (as when you are at a easier level). i.e. what you can do and what you can't remains the same at different difficulty levels. The only thing that changes is the "capability" of the AI to think... it thinks (quicker and deeper) more steps every second at higher level... and thus make the game more challenging to human player. It is simple, right?

Immagine:
1. A computer International Chess game which give you 1 knight less or give AI player an extra knight when difficulty level is raised.
2. The designer of the game desided to retrict human player from moving the Queen in diagonal tiles simply because AI can not play well in that aspect.

Is the above sound familiar to any of you wrt to CIV?
 
There is indeed a tradition in chess of stronger players taking handicaps when playing with weaker players, but that's beside the point. I do understand what you're saying, I think. Essentially, you'd rather have a smarter AI on higher difficulty levels rather than just giving the AI more advantages over you (an extra knight, to use the chess metaphor). By the same token, you'd rather not have lower difficulty levels involve the human player getting a whole bunch of advantages. Am I getting this right?

At the risk of responding to a position that may not be correctly interpreted, I will say that I agree with you on that. It has always annoyed me a little bit that the AI doesn't really play smarter on higher difficulty levels, they just get a lot more knights and super-powered queens.

I'm hoping that Civ5 will be moving away from this, and initial reports would seem to indicate this. There are supposed to be three different levels of AI--operational, tactical, and strategic--that deal with different aspects in the game in a way that is similar to the way human players play. That is (hopefully), every minor decision made by the AI will play into a larger strategy designed to ultimately win the game.

Sorry if I'm not addressing your points. I'm mainly going off your last post here.
 
What I want to emphasize here is actually the 2.

"The designer of the game desided to retrict human player from moving the Queen in diagonal tiles simply because AI can not play well in that aspect."

Remember the "chop tree" issue? (It simply jumps into my mind while writing this)
Well, there are people find that an exploit and the developer have been convinced (to me, both parties are as silly), so they only let you chop tree and get rewards once (no more than once). WTH is that called an exploit, why don't they just make AI keep chopping tree and keep getting rewards like some human player did? I mean if AI will be able to do the same, how can that be an advantage to himan player, how could that be called an exploit?

It is the reward (joy) in the game that propels one to keep on playing. I don't find looking for how others are exploiting certain features a joy. If I enjoy cheating (which I don't think I am, I just want to play as crazy as I could), let it be so, just don't restrict me from playing it my way.
 
Hmm. OK. I'm not sure if I quite get you.

To address the specific issue of chopping trees, I think the key issue here is game balance. In Civ 4, at least, you get a continuous production bonus from forests. You can trade in that production bonus to get a one time boost to production if you really need it. If the forest grows back, you can chop it again. I'm not really sure what you want to happen here. Do you want the player to be able to chop a forest for the one time boost but have the forest not go away? If that is the case, wouldn't you just want to always be chopping forests? You'd have to have a worker stationed on each forest tile to chop over and over again, which I would consider moving in the direction of excessive micromanagement.

The production bonus you get from leaving a forest there represents your civilization chopping that forest in a sustainable manner, and having the option to clear cut a section of forest is one of those choices you have to make that makes the game interesting. If you could have the best of both worlds, there would be no choices, and the game probably wouldn't be as much fun.

hclass said:
just don't restrict me from playing it my way.
Click to expand...

So... you don't want there to be any rules? That's the best I can glean from your posts. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just genuinely don't understand what you want from the game.

If you really want to play the game your way (for example, allowing forests to be chopped without removing them), there's always modding.
 
Sid Meier says the below in one of his recent interview:

"the problem is that once you start to mould games into a specific purpose, the player becomes less important. If the player doesn't want to go in that direction, you haven't created the game they want to play. Introducing those kind of constraints to gaming isn't going to pay off the way people think they're going to; you can't transfer the compulsion to play Civilization to the compulsion to buy potato chips."

to me the above means, if I want to play a warmonger, just let me do so, don't try to push me towards peaceful/diplomatic way by restricting this and that in the war itself or its rewards.

and most importanty he continues:

"The value of gaming is in the freedom of the player to explore whatever they want to explore to their own ends; once they're being pushed in a certain direction it's no longer a gaming experience, it's manipulation."

To me that mean: just let me do it to the extend I will, no stupid restriction on something already offered as a game feature.

Though at that time he was replying to using Civ in educational purpose, but what he has stated can be applied universally in term of game design. I find that he, my idol, has said what I want to say in a very professional way. He is great and should sound more convincing than me, I supppose...

I hope he will take more play in game design in every coming CIV version, I really hope he will.

Suho1004 said:
Hmm. OK. I'm not sure if I quite get you.

...

So... you don't want there to be any rules? That's the best I can glean from your posts. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just genuinely don't understand what you want from the game.
Click to expand...

You are very forgetful.
What I want is listed 1 to 4 in my intial post + no.5 in post 9.

My long argument is to answer why what I want will NOT make the game easier.
 
hclass said:
"The value of gaming is in the freedom of the player to explore whatever they want to explore to their own ends; once they're being pushed in a certain direction it's no longer a gaming experience, it's manipulation."

To me that mean: just let me do it to the extend I will, no stupid restriction on something already offered as a game feature.
Click to expand...

Just going by your chopping example, I have to say that I think you might be misinterpreting that quote. Of course, this is just my opinion, so it's possible I might be interpreting that quote.

:)

Things like chopping and the like aren't "restrictions," they're rules. Most games have a system of rules that the player has to follow, and learning how to win the game while following those rules is part of the challenge (and, I think, the fun). To go back to your chess metaphor, what if we decided that we didn't like the way knights moved and we changed them so that they could capture anywhere along their path of movement (not just at the endpoint)? Like I said above, there is a grand tradition in chess of "modding" to introduce interesting changes like that, but each variation still has its own rules.

It sounds to me like what you really want from Civ is a sandbox game, something like Grand Theft Auto, where you can go around and do just about whatever you want (note: I never played GTA, but I heard that's what it's like--I could be wrong). Civ has never been a sandbox game, although in the latest iterations you have had the option to play with these rules and change them to your liking. So you can play within the original set of rules or mod the game to suit your needs. I think starting with a vanilla version that has a basic set of rules and then letting players mod the game as they see fit is a good idea.

OK, I think I've said all I can say on this subject. Feel free to reply, and maybe I'll come back later, but I've got to get some work done now.

:D
 
First of all, can I confirm with you that, at second chop of a forest, you will get nothing, right? I mean though you can repeat chopping but you got no boost in production right? (If the answer is yes, then it is the same as you can't repeat choping tree to get rewards)

Suho1004 said:
Just going by your chopping example, I have to say that I think you might be misinterpreting that quote. Of course, this is just my opinion, so it's possible I might be interpreting that quote.
Click to expand...

Why don't you apply what Sid has said with my request to have map reveal an option to start playing. See how or will it fits.
(simply because I don't enjoy keep chopping tree...) :)
 
It sounds to me like you may not have the attention span to play this game, though for some reason you're forcing yourself to like it. I hope no one with any bearing on any future Civ game will take anything said here seriously as it is the antithesis of what so many consider the soul of these games.

You sound like you want more of a God game like populous or black and white.
 
hclass said:
Ah! I forget one more crucial request: Make sure there is always a great reward for every Tech researched.
I remember, it all started with Civ3 when we have several Tech that serve purely as prerequisite of further Tech pursue (and if my memory serves me well, there are still such techs, though fewer in Civ4)... That was a totally crap piece of work, to me it is simply the most lazy way in aligning Tech advance to other events in the game.

Lets talk about my requested features which sound "easier" to those who like to torture themselve for reasons which I will never understand. Remember this as I have stated in the previous post:

"Btw, I don't mind AI players are given all the same joys as above."
(The word joys in the above statement could mean "easier" or human player "advantage", feel free to choose whichever you prefer)

If AI players can DO the same (so claimed features that will make the game easier) as human player, I don't see how those things can make the game easier to win... I mean, those features are making things easier for both sides - human and AI players as well, so there isn't any chance it will ease either side to win. (and the great thing is, it brings joys to human player without taking any advantage, since AI too can do the same)

Firaxis always claimed they have offered a better AI in every new version of CIV... to me, they didn't, indeed.
Firaxis should try to code AI to take advantage through certain features just like human player will.
But, my experience tells me, instead of making AI players act as smart as we (human player), they restrict us from doing many great things simply because AI player won't be able to do the same.

The idea that a game has to be "difficult" (torturing human player) in order to make it more challenging is just STUPID.

To those who can't understand what really make a computer game "challeging", please see the example in my next post.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... try playing Civ 2 and tell me the AI hasn't improved..... It has improved tremendously!! (I can agree to the fact that it didn't improve that much from Civ3).

If you dont like the harder difficulties (and being tortured) why bother playing them? I for one think it's funny (and in a way a feeling of being tortured, just in a nice nerve-suspencing way) when the AI is an era in front of me in tech and u have to utilize your empire to the max to keep up :)

In a game like Civ, humans will always be smarter than the AI.

(Maybe Civ IX will prove me wrong...)
 
Haha! Yeah, and real life turns into Civ where the computer is the player and the humans merely stupid AI's :O (and the computer gets grumpy!! D@$%n I wish those people could be a little smarter!!)
 
hclass said:
Why don't you apply what Sid has said with my request to have map reveal an option to start playing. See how or will it fits.
(simply because I don't enjoy keep chopping tree...) :)
Click to expand...

OK, although I get the feeling we are getting into counter-productive territory here, if we haven't crossed into it already.

There are plenty of options in the game that allow you to change certain things. Playing with a revealed map is one possible option because it does not change the fundamental rules of the game. Same thing with something like tech trading, which I turn off in all my Civ 4 games. Having tech trading is optional because it doesn't mess with the game mechanics.

Chopping trees, on the other hand, is something different. If you chop trees for a one-time production boost, though, the trees go away. That's a fundamental game mechanic. If you don't like it, you can change the game mechanic by either modding it so that the trees don't go away. But it's not something you can just turn on and off, like playing with a visible map.

If you honestly can't see the difference between these two things, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't think I can put it any other way.

I do hope you enjoy Civ 5, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
[BNW] why AIs feel to be inconsistent?
Replies
5
Views
816
Klaus Hergersheimer
Klaus Hergersheimer
A
CIV 5 Cocoa and Bison
Replies
2
Views
665
Actic_Civ
A
T
[BNW] Wonders of the Ancient World
Replies
3
Views
546
Tharkon
T
B
Civ 5 is disappointing
Replies
5
Views
4K
Bonyduck Campersang
Bonyduck Campersang
P
[G&K] Difference in difficulty from Emperor to immortal
Replies
1
Views
651
Kriogen
K
Back
Top Bottom