I just want CIV 5 to be a joyful game

Absolutely. You can't just hand out "rewards" or they become meaningless, and the rewards for different effective strategies need to be similar.
Why don't you start reading some of the earlier post in this thread?
I strongly second your idea, just increase the reward of other strategies, whichever you feel fit.

You can't just go around handing out big bonuses for conquering cities, or being a warmonger becomse even more of a dominant strategy than it already is. There are already huge rewards for capturing a city; you get a new city that can produce stuff for you, AND you deprive your opponent of a city.
You forget one thing, whatever you get, your opponentd too.
You really need to read some of my earlier replies.

That has to be the weirdest (and least useful) analogy I've ever seen.
Please feel free to replace Superman with any of the below, whichever make you feel better:
1. Spiderman
2. Batman
3. Ultraman
4. X-Men

Making every reward higher makes no sense. Rewards can only be evaluated relative to opportunity costs. If I increase the research output of everything by a factor of 10, and increase tech costs by 10, then I haven't actually changed the game.
If I double the strength of every military unit ("Big Guns!"), I haven't actually changed the game.
According to your theory, then the movie where the Superman saves the world (everything in more intensive scale) should exactly feel like a movie where a father saves his family (everything in less intensive scale). How come they feel different?

If you gain an ability to easily change 1 terrain type to another, then you just removed the importance of terrain, because it doesn't matter anymore what the original terrain was.
:confused:
Isn't it a fact that whenever you want to change something, that something must be originally BAD to you, right? So, how can its original form does not matter?
If the importance of terrain really have been removed, why would I care to change it. It must be something important, otherwise who cares to change?
:confused:
What is so bad to change from type A to B, where both are terrain type?

Limitations also help with AI. The more options there are, the worse an AI will do relative to a human player. By limiting the game, you can code an AI that works within those limitations, and limit the number of areas where the human can do better than the AI, and so make an AI that can compete without having to cheat as badly.
Are you being paid to play CIV?:confused:

"Lazy developer" is just ridiculous. Coding a good AI is *hard*.
Ya, that is why anyone can make it, grabs a fortune.
Anyone want a fortune but try to find an easy way is called lazy.
It is ridiculous anyone can't understand this.
 
So, how can its original form does not matter?

Because it soon ceases to be "original form" anyway.

According to your theory, then the movie where the Superman saves the world (everything in more intensive scale) should exactly feel like a movie where a father saves his family (everything in less intensive scale). How come they feel different?

And that's why the analogy is flawed.

Through sure, if in Civ4, you would be able to make your every terrain tile Floodplain Grassland Gold Hills by the beginning of Middle Ages, the feeling of the game will change, but it won't change for the better.
 
Because it soon ceases to be "original form" anyway.

AH! I finally understand what you mean...
You mean if you spend all your money very quickly, that makes the money not important whereas if you spend all your money slowly, it becomes important?

So, the "speed" where a subject is being changed now become a factor of its importance.
Congratualtion!
I think you have found a new way to apply Einstein's theory of relativity.
 
Why don't you start reading some of the earlier post in this thread?
I did. You make no sense.

I strongly second your idea, just increase the reward of other strategies, whichever you feel fit.
You're still missing the point. How do you define a reward? Is 10 gold a big reward? 100 gold? 1000 gold? Thats unknowable on its own. The value of a reward depends ONLY on what you can do with it.

You forget one thing, whatever you get, your opponentd too.
So what? Ok, lets increase the tile yield of every tile by 3 hammers. Everyone gets it! Is that good for the game? No, you've just made it so that the tradeoff between making buildings and units is unimportant, because you can easily do both, and you've just made armies bigger with more units (and more micromanagement).

Also, since you can use your huge army more effectively than the AI can, you've made the game easier.

You mean if you spend all your money very quickly, that makes the money not important whereas if you spend all your money slowly, it becomes important?

Maybe YOU need to learn to read.

The problem is this; in Civ as it stands, it really matters what the terrain surrounding some particular spot is. If its surrounded by mountains, it will never be able to support a good city, so you should be wary about founding there.

In your system, where you can easily transform terrain, then the terrain surrounding some spot doesn't matter, because you can quickly change it. So you can just go ahead and build a city in the middle of the mountains, knowing that you'll be able to turn it into good, productive terrain.

So you've lost the significance of terrain in affecting city location decisions, and you've lost the value of scarce good city sites, because now *everywhere* is a good city site.

In the status quo, terrain really matters, because you cannot change it. In your world, you can change it, so it ceases to be a significant binding constraint.

Since you seem to like superheroes, go watch the Incredibles. "When everyone is super, then no-one is super."

Ya, that is why anyone can make it, grabs a fortune.
Anyone want a fortune but try to find an easy way is called lazy.
It is ridiculous anyone can't understand this.
Deciding not to do something really, really hard is not laziness.
How many marathons have you run? Less than 20? Does this mean you are lazy?
 
I disagree completely, Superman is one of the most boring characters ever made. He enter, win, go away....

The most rewarding experience is when you win a hard battle (in CIV) or manage to have a good nation with a poor start etc.

See, Spiderman is much cooler. =P

Ex.: In CIV 2 you simply steal a technology of your enemy when you capture one of his cities, that was too much.

Yeah! That was my favorite strategy in Civ2. As soon as you got Fundamentalism you changed to that, turned tech to 0% and then went on a world rampage :) Since capturing a city gave u a tech you were sure never to lag behind.
 
You're still missing the point. How do you define a reward?
Anything I grab joyfully.

Is 10 gold a big reward? 100 gold? 1000 gold? Thats unknowable on its own. The value of a reward depends ONLY on what you can do with it.
That prove you didn't really read previous post (and I do make sense). See the second remark of post#36

So what? Ok, lets increase the tile yield of every tile by 3 hammers. Everyone gets it! Is that good for the game? No, you've just made it so that the tradeoff between making buildings and units is unimportant, because you can easily do both, and you've just made armies bigger with more units (and more micromanagement).
(You really have hit my G-Spot)
and it will be better if each individual unit is more powerful than it is now in Civ4. It will be even better if they bring back infinite railroad movement. So I can move my powerful and big army to the enemy's door in no time... btw, I don't mind the enemy can also send an equally big force to defense. I just want a BIG fight. I am willing to risk a BIG loss for BIG satisfaction... it is just a game, remember?

Also, since you can use your huge army more effectively than the AI can,
How do you know? Are you jeolous of me? :cool: (just kidding)

you've made the game easier.
That could only be true if Firaxis fail to make the AI use the army as effective as human player... Why don't you blame them?
You see, the problem of you is, you think what I want will make the game easier and you have never tought of something that make both of us happy. Just go urge Firaxis improve AI in warfare (and give me all I want), isn't that a win-win solution?

Maybe YOU need to learn to read.
I am.

In your system, where you can easily transform terrain, then the terrain surrounding some spot doesn't matter, because you can quickly change it. So you can just go ahead and build a city in the middle of the mountains, knowing that you'll be able to turn it into good, productive terrain.
I won't be that stupid.
If I can find a spot where I don't have to do terrain transforming, I will settle there, why sweat?
The great thing is, if there isn't any perfect spot, I can still try to find a spot which requires minimum transforming effort to settle... you see, this opens up far more strategies than a rigid terrain system

So you've lost the significance of terrain in affecting city location decisions, and you've lost the value of scarce good city sites, because now *everywhere* is a good city site.
Not true. Terrain type remain as significant.
I only make it possible for every tile to become perfect city settling spot.
I only open up a second option for you. You can now either stick to the old way keep finding a perfect spot or you can opt to settle at a not so perfect spot quickly and start terrain transforming... that sounds real good.

and the story never ends there:

1. I also let you opt NOT to build expensive ship in order to move further in distance, just dig a channel at strategic spot.
2. I also let you opt to dig a big lake to stop the advance of enemy army and force them to go by ship.
3. I also let you dig a lake at any spot to destroy a resource tile (it now become water, and you can't have Cow there)
4. I also suggest you to use your immagination to elongate this list... it is endless.

Since you seem to like superheroes, go watch the Incredibles. "When everyone is super, then no-one is super."
That is exactly my point:
"When everyone is super" everyone feel super ... isn't it good to feel super?
Why are you insist on "no-one is super" and no one feel super?

Deciding not to do something really, really hard is not laziness.
But, wanting a really, really easy fortune is.

How many marathons have you run? Less than 20? Does this mean you are lazy?
I have zero.
But I am not lazy, because when I don't run, I don't expect people to pay me for not running.
 
Anything I grab joyfully.
I would comment on that, but it might get me banned.

and it will be better if each individual unit is more powerful than it is now in Civ4.
ARGH! If EVERY individual unit is more powerful, then NO unit is more powerful. If you increase the strength of every unit in the game by 500%, the total impact is zero. All you're doing is addnig zeroes.

That could only be true if Firaxis fail to make the AI use the army as effective as human player... Why don't you blame them?
.... seriously? Because AI is really hard to code! They're never going to make an AI that can play the game as effectively as a human can.
Its not laziness, or greed, its just an impossibility.

"When everyone is super" everyone feel super ... isn't it good to feel super?
No! Because "super" is a relative term. It is meaningful only in comparison to things that are weaker. How do you know that Superman is Super? Because he can't do things that other people can't. On Krypton, Superman is not Super.
/washes mouth out for being forced to communicate in comic book terms.

2. I also let you opt to dig a big lake to stop the advance of enemy army and force them to go by ship.
Ok, now I really know you're not even serious at all.

MOAR! MOAAAR!!!

I'm done here.
 
So if you could land tiles into water tiles, could you turn water tiles into land tiles?
If so I don't see any reason to not build enormous land bridges to connect continents and render naval units next to useless, especially if they also implented unlimited railway movement, allowing instantaneous travel around the globe.

Which would be totally ridiculous.

It would make the game more into Micheal Bay's Civilization 5....
 
Civilization is a game based on history, and its ideas should be based on history. Show me an instance where a nation has intentionally bulldozed a mountain range or dug out a lake (and I mean a pretty large scale-- remember, small countries like Switzerland take up one to two tiles in Civ IV terms-- your system would make it possible to submerge Switzerland in about 3 years in the modern era).

Secondly, comparing a movie series to a game series is horribly flawed. Find me a way to play Citizen Kane (as a video game), or watch Super Smash Bros. and I'll admit your point has merit.

Finally, Civilization should be about building a civilization using the tools they can use. Its not about being a god, otherwise they would call it, "Sid Meier's Deity". Justifying huge expansions of player power by repeating the word joy doesn't make this go away.
 
I would comment on that, but it might get me banned.
Don't worry, I won't get upset by any comment (so you can never really make me feel I am attacked) :p
I know what you dirty-minder think about. :)

ARGH! If EVERY individual unit is more powerful, then NO unit is more powerful. If you increase the strength of every unit in the game by 500%, the total impact is zero. All you're doing is addnig zeroes.
I understand the contra effect... but I enjoy seeing more zeroes... (even though they all added the same) do you see my point?

.... seriously? Because AI is really hard to code! They're never going to make an AI that can play the game as effectively as a human can.
Its not laziness, or greed, its just an impossibility.
If you are talking about diplomatic decision/plot, then I will agree, that really is AI programming, especially if the developer intend to make the Civ leader behave like human. For warfare, it is mainly tactical, I don't see how it is impossible in programming.

No! Because "super" is a relative term. It is meaningful only in comparison to things that are weaker. How do you know that Superman is Super? Because he can't do things that other people can't. On Krypton, Superman is not Super.
You finally used the golden word - relative. Yes! You are right brother.
Relatively, I would prefer CIV5 to have everything BIGGER, more overwhelming than that in CIV4. (especially rewards)
i.e. if everythign in CIV4 have already been to much (too big) for me, relatively, I will now request for a reduce on them...

------------------------

So if you could land tiles into water tiles, could you turn water tiles into land tiles?
If so I don't see any reason to not build enormous land bridges to connect continents and render naval units next to useless, especially if they also implented unlimited railway movement, allowing instantaneous travel around the globe.

Which would be totally ridiculous.

It would make the game more into Micheal Bay's Civilization 5....

Do you think it is easy to build long land bridge, just because turning water into land takes fewer turns?
Have you forgetten it is as easy to destroy them by turning them back into water (if your opponent want to)?
Have you forgotten that land units (now confirm) can sail to your halve-made bridge, climb up and transform into land unit to capture your workers?
If you protect your workers with army, I will send ships to bombard them... so, do you see? That is much more interesting, isn't it?
 
I understand the contra effect... but I enjoy seeing more the zeroes... (even though they all added the same) do you see my point?

A warrior with a strength of 93453244545444. Super!

If you are talking about diplomatic decision/plot, then I will agree, that really is AI programming, especially if the developer intend to make the Civ leader behave like human. For warfare, it is mainly tactical, I don't see how it is impossible in programming.

Maybe you should join the team, you seem to be a pro in AI programming...

You finally used the golden word - relative. Yes! You are right brother.
Relatively, I would prefer CIV5 to have everything BIGGER, more overwhelming than that in CIV4. (especially rewards)

Bigger rewards?
You've raised the slider by 10%? You'll get a big reward!
You've raised the slider by 20%? You'll get a huge reward!
You've raised the slider by 30%? You'll get a incredible great reward!
Wow, i can't imagine what will happen, when i raise it by 40%!
 
You have forgotten 1 crucial factor, if you opponent also get bigger reward, he/she will be stronger/richer/bigger and that makes you advance slower (especially with war way). So ummm... you are wrong! Bigger reward won't make everything goes faster

Nope. If you set the speed higher, your opponent also cranks out units faster, builds faster, and gains (proportionately) more from things like chopping. Still, the game does not slow down - it goes faster.

It's inescapable - if you increase all the rewards equally, you haven't changed anything, unless you keep costs of production and research and so on the same. If you do that, all you've done is the same as what happens when you set the speed higher. The only difference is that instead of speeding up the game by lowering production costs, you've kept production costs the same and increased all output - just a different way of doing the same thing.

As far as Superman goes, I only need to remind there were other crucial elements of the character, without which he would've been even more boring than he already is: for instance, kryptonite and Clark Kent. Superman didn't just walk around like he was in perpetual "cheat mode" ... if that's how you perceive the story, you've completely missed the point.
 
Do you think it is easy to build long land bridge, just because turning water into land takes fewer turns?
Have you forgetten it is as easy to destroy them by turning them back into water (if your opponent want to)?
Have you forgotten that land units (now confirm) can sail to your halve-made bridge, climb up and transform into land unit to capture your workers?
If you protect your workers with army, I will send ships to bombard them... so, do you see? That is much more interesting, isn't it?

Don't be at war while building the bridge, building cities along the bridge and not having open borders if neccesary, I think it would be fairly easy to exploit.
Despite thinking this is a bad idea it has inspired me, maybe they could have volcanic islands spring up and expand...
 
Fact- i want mayhem and attack and allies and attack again

Fact- Multiplayer- Single player- matters not- i cannot be stopped

Fact- New Attacko Strategy Guide

Fact- Maybe a screenshot strategy guide that uses only screenshots and knows nothing about the mechanics but is still accurate

the evidence is clear- hyper strategy civ5 game guide of the new forever - for the superior
 
Having options that are 'warmonger easy' (ie no rebel activity/no collateral damage to buildings+pop)or 'diplomacy/builder easy' (no war) or X easy in the rules options sounds good. (no global warming/ no nukes/ no maintenance charges)

However, There is the issue with the Standard game. That would should have penalties for conquest, or forgetting to defend yourself. Because part of the fun is overcoming challenges.
 
Nope. If you set the speed higher, your opponent also cranks out units faster, builds faster, and gains (proportionately) more from things like chopping. Still, the game does not slow down - it goes faster.
I am sorry for I should have made it clearer.
When I say the game won't get faster (because your opponents also get stronger), I am refering to the speed of one's progress towards winning the game, not the speed of how everything can be done.

Lets take war for example:
In a fight, when both parties have bigger army (in power, size and movement speed like unlimited rail movement), that does not means the war is going to finish faster.
And yes, the time take to build each unit is faster (since cost of building remain the same as in the past, but revenue of players are boosted), but then situation will force you to build bigger army before invading because, if you don't, your small size army can be easily outnumber by your opponent's (since it is also quicker for them to produce defending units)

It's inescapable - if you increase all the rewards equally, you haven't changed anything, unless you keep costs of production and research and so on the same.
Yes, my 2nd remark in Post#36

If you do that, all you've done is the same as what happens when you set the speed higher. The only difference is that instead of speeding up the game by lowering production costs, you've kept production costs the same and increased all output - just a different way of doing the same thing.
I think you have started to see what I am looking for but there is still one thing wrong with your idea where EVERYTHING will go faster. To me, it means, each individual building (of structure or unit) go faster, the quantity and quality of everything get bigger and most importantly, the game won't end sooner. Anything involve conflict between 2 parties (or more) will take longer if not the same. For example, borders push one another harder (though they each grow faster when no contact), war won't take any shorter (you have relatively stronger opponents) and so on.

As far as Superman goes, I only need to remind there were other crucial elements of the character, without which he would've been even more boring than he already is:
I don't really mean to use Superman movie to craft the next CIV's shape.
But I think it is a real good example to let many see exactly what and why I have requested right at the very beginning of this thread.

BTW: Superman movie does not end sooner than other type of movie -- even though it take Superman much shorter (and easier) to do everything, say go round the world, punch a guy to the moon and so on.

for instance, kryptonite and Clark Kent. Superman didn't just walk around like he was in perpetual "cheat mode" ... if that's how you perceive the story, you've completely missed the point.
For what I have requested, if implemented in Civ5, it doesn't mean you can just sit there and your empire expends, your army grows automatically... You will still need to explore and build as normal. I just want those process to be easier so we can reach the conflict part quicker and then the conflict take higher magnitude.... and longer ... and ... more intersting.

There is one more crucial factor, that makes me foresee longer war (where, everything else as you have said get done faster), do you know what is it?
Think it yourself.:p

Don't be at war while building the bridge, building cities along the bridge and not having open borders if neccesary, I think it would be fairly easy to exploit.
So, you are suggesting building land bridge at peaceful time and it will become an exploit, right?
Let me tell you, not long after you start building your land bridge, you see 3 ships (or more, be they battle type or civil) in one row, right in front of you, they just stay there, still. What will you do?
1. You can send ships to attack them and break the peace. The story continue with what I have mentioned as in my previous reply to you
2. You can go horizontal a bit in an attempt to bypass them (I don't think it is wise). SO they again shift they location to block you again... I think it wil take you forever to reach where you want your land bridge go. (You better choose 1.)
3. You can of course stop build the bridge and go do something more fruitful.
Btw,
You have mentioned the poison word -- Exploit, which have poisoned the designer of Civ3 and Civ4 so far...
 
hclas,

so basically what you want is both the human player And the AI player to have "world builder" like abilities while playing the game.

Other than those types of abilities (which would have to be modded in). You could also play games on Quick speed (all the costs are reduced..... which makes all the rewards of everything bigger)

so 1 production is "bigger" on quick speed because you only need 5 of them to build a warrior.
 
Keep in mind that one of the main problems in game AI handling is not making the AI good enough to challenge you, it is all about making it good enough to compete and poor enough so that you feel you may yet still win. Making an AI that would beat you pretty much every time would not be that interesting at all, at least that is not a game that people will want to play because they would feel like losers.

Gamers want a challenge but they still expect to win. The AI is written to cater to that need, it is not written to beat you every time.
 
hclas,
so basically what you want is both the human player And the AI player to have "world builder" like abilities while playing the game.
I have never tried "world builder" before, so, I don't really understand what you mean by "world builder" like abilities.
I think it is stupid to play with modding kits or something alike if you really want to enjoy the game.
It is just like you go and watch a trailer showing you in details (the tricks) how a particular movie is being made before you watch the movie itself. It simply spoil your feel of that movie. Why don't you give it a try and see whether I am right.

Other than those types of abilities (which would have to be modded in). You could also play games on Quick speed (all the costs are reduced..... which makes all the rewards of everything bigger)
so 1 production is "bigger" on quick speed because you only need 5 of them to build a warrior.
It all end ups discussing the effect of "better and bigger reward" VS "faster in prodicing things" because Fekk (and I think you too) keep telling me, it is like another way of putting the game into faster pace. I am sorry, I am not convinced up to this point...

In my first post, I also ask to waive the fact that all citizens of a captured city will go against you, don't you remember? Simply play a quick speed game means I will still face the samething, that alone tells what you have suggested is different from what I want.

To be frank, I am quite disapponited with those who claim my few requests is the same as though I want no rules in the game... it is kind of chicanery.

I undertstand, rules in a game is important in shaping its gameplay and what I want is just to waive few of them that make the game unpleasing to play, particularly when I see no good reasons to have them. You can go on and argue they are there for game balancing and I can counter with all kind of alternatives as how to still balance the game without them... Do you see what I mean?

Remember this, most of my requested changes have actually been there in previous ver of Civ, they have aligned the Civ game well, otherwise CIV game won't be glorious this far. I just want them to be restored and if necessary, replace with something better.
i.e. because there was a decision of someone who want 1/3 of CIV things get discarded/changed, it does not mean he will always discard/change something correctly. I just found him wrong with respect to all those I have requested.

Keep in mind that one of the main problems in game AI handling is not making the AI good enough to challenge you
No! It is.
The AI has to be good enough to challenge me and it will be better still if it can beat me. (See why below)

it is all about making it good enough to compete and poor enough so that you feel you may yet still win. Making an AI that would beat you pretty much every time would not be that interesting at all, at least that is not a game that people will want to play because they would feel like losers.
I am glad you seem to understand what is a good philosophy in game design.
Just handicap the AI ability to different extend in different difficulty level will do. But first you must have a good enough AI power.

Gamers want a challenge but they still expect to win. The AI is written to cater to that need, it is not written to beat you every time.
AH HAHAHA! I like you.
I don't really mind whether or not AI can beat me, but I will get very frustrated when the process of winnig or losing the game is full of unlpeasing mechanics due to bad game design.
i.e. I prefer to enjoy the process not the outcome if I can't have both and...

I would like to share with you the best piece of advice:

If there won't be a good ending, then just enjoy the process, don't die for good ending and end up only the others are enjoying the process.

(I somehow feel like it is about sex, but my friend says it is about love.)
 
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