I Know This Will Probably Get Old and Repetititve - But I Need More Expert Tips for Playing Emperor

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

I'm going to reply in detail to this post later.

However I've seen one thing that needs commenting, in fact, the higher the difficulty, the lower your OCN. The base OCN of 28 gets a downside multiplier and so perhaps (IIRC) you get an OCN of only 24 or less on Emperor, even less on higher difficulties. That makes the SPHQ and Communism more important, except of course on the case mentioned but hey Huge Pangea 60% water sid maps are very hard and not that common among players for what I've seen.

EDIT - On Emperor, you get only 80% of OCN, on Deity it's just 60%. That's the correct numbers. So 28 * 80% = 22 cities. Just 22 cities. With FP you get a maximum of 44. Above that it is essential to switch to Commie, Commercial bonus perhaps saves you up to 52-56 cities.

EDIT 2 - Besides, under Republic, I don't have the patience to build Courthouses and Police Statios everywhere. Maybe just Courthouses, but hey, that's not a given or guaranteed. You should take the FP-SPHQ boni alone, because not every corrupt backwater jungle town is going to have at least a courthouse. That's in my experience.

In Commie, it's easier to build such implements by whipping people. But even the ring 6 - 10 and backwater holes get so low corruption (which you're not going to increase unless you try a major sprawl, like you mentioned), it's not worth it to whip citizens to build such stuff in the first place.

 

[justanick]

However I've seen one thing that needs commenting, in fact, the higher the difficulty, the lower your OCN.

No. Nopt is reduced, not OCN. When talking about corruption we should stick with the terms used in the reference article.

Everything about Corruption: C3C edition

This is a guide about how corruption works in Conquests. It's slightly different than how it used to work in PTW and vanilla Civ3. The information that follows was discovered by extensive testing and contributions by numerous members of the Civ3 community, including Aeson, DaviddesJ, Nor Me...

forums.civfanatics.com

So 28 * 80% = 22 cities. Just 22 cities. With FP you get a maximum of 44.

No. You need to read the article first to understand how corruption works in C3C 1.22. The effect of the FP is way smaller than that.

That makes the SPHQ and Communism more important,

Well, not really because the effect of the difficulty setting applies to them as well. The effect of courthouses and police stations however remains the same, which sort of increases their relative value. Together they increase Nopt by 50% of OCN. That matters for republic, but hardly matters for communism.

Above that it is essential to switch to Commie,

Absolutely not. The research output of a republic will be higher under almost all circumstances during peacetime.

Commercial bonus perhaps saves you up to 52-56 cities.

The commercial bonus is also reduced by difficulty setting.

EDIT 2 - Besides, under Republic, I don't have the patience to build Courthouses and Police Statios everywhere. Maybe just Courthouses, but hey, that's not a given or guaranteed. You should take the FP-SPHQ boni alone, because not every corrupt backwater jungle town is going to have at least a courthouse. That's in my experience.

Courthouses are essential for communism because distance corruption is 25% prior to modifiers. Police stations however are hardly worth it in communism, they only reduce corruption by about 6.25 percentage points. But as a republic they are very useful. Once you have the tech for communism the government type communism looses a big portion of its relative usefulness.

In Commie, it's easier to build such implements by whipping people.

In communism you should not whip. You lose productive population because corruption is low.

In a republic you simply disband your abundance of units. If the 53 metros in your core build a cavalry every 2 to 3 turns, then you can disband about 53/2.5=21.2 cavs per turn which is enough for 21.2/4=5.3 courthouses per turn or 21.2/8=2.65 police stations per turn or 21.2/12=1.767 courthouses and police stations per turn. Production is plenty after building the Hooverdam. It would take only about 11 turns to give courthouses and police stations to all 19 towns outside the core.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

I see what you mean, and you're realy possibly one of the most eloquent Republic defenders I've seen here. But granted, it's beenb a long time since I came here or played Civ, just returning.

In fact I like to take the old Civ3 model for granted because that's what I used to play for a long time. And still, it doesn't fail me, of course C3C has a new corruption model. Even then, even if I choose to build FP in a newly conquered town with a leader rush or take the old model for granted, it still doesn't fail to tell me who's going to be good and productive and how much corruption I face. I don't need to delve that deep into details, but of course, if we're taking an absolute grinding contest, the details matter.

The thing is, leaving aside all the complicated calculations, if you're big, have a big army, and have tons of backwater corrupt towns in Republic, switching to Communism is worthwile because of the following:

a) you likely pay more than 120 gpt in army support. Communism erases that. That 120gpt goes back to you.
b) you have more than 60 cities. Communism makes it easier to manage your corrupt backwater.
c) you pay a lot of gold in corruption fighting buildings, like police stations and courthouses. Communism saves you the hassle of paying support for such stuff in the first place. That means the gpt goes back to you.
d) You have a lot of backwater towns with foreign pop. Communism makes it easier to manage by just whipping away these foreign dudes, whatever, and replacing them with your own. Also makes it less likely to defect on the long run.
e) You want to develop your Empire in a more or less equitable fashion: Communism allows you by removing almost free 75% or more of the corruption in your backwater.
f) You're often at war and face a lot of WW. Communism spares you that.
g) You use 10-40% of the luxury slider. Communism, with the MP, corruption and the likelihood that you're big and already have\trade for lots of luxuries, minimizes that to 0% in more than 70% of the situations. That means all the gpt goes back to you, or goes to research, minimizing the Republic research boni.


So that means if you're beyond 60 cities, on any map but esp. the larger ones at any difficulty setting, Commie still makes a difference and gives you a decisive income, military support and corruption bonus. So that's basically my argument, and I know you're probably saying "but Republic", still in most practical game situations I faced with these situations switching to Commie was a life saver.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

That said, I'm not saying I'm going to outmatch the eloquence of the Republic defenders here. And really, when you're smaller and peaceful, it's the best option.

 

[Spoonwood]

Tanks still have a tough tough time against Mechs and Tow. And on Emperor, despite it being like 1820 AD, the stronger AI's already have these.

So Arty pounding is life and death.

I agree I shouldn't carry more Arty, and that perhaps 40 is excessive.

These statements contradict each other.

40 artillery proper is not enough (unless you have lots of captured), once the AI have infantry. Trebuchets and cannons can run out things to do. 40 trebucehts MIGHT be too many, since they can't get into position. 40 cannons still might be too many, but once rails get up, they might have something to shoot at often enough. 40 artillery proper is too many? There's no such thing as too many artillery proper. As soon as there exists artillery proper, a rail network, I find that it's not having enough artillery proper and/or settlers (and positioning) that tends to hold things back. Well, perhaps buying a few armies for strange positions instead of aritllery proper might make more sense. But, two settlers can shift a border in a single turn to put artillery proper in place also.

I don't recall what tanks attack at. But, a 4 hitpoint unit with a default attack of 16 vs. a 1 hitpoint 24 defense unit in a metropolis (does not include civil defense apparently) according to this combat calculator has a 53.7% chance of winning. Again, there's no such thing as too many artillery proper... at least if you can get them into position. Maybe you might need more transports or galleons on a archipelago map or settlers.

Having more than 30 infantry is simply wasteful in almost all circumstances and more then 10 is already quite much.

Yea, I tend to agree, though I have usually built more of them. There's the first turn of a war with a large border that can get a bit tricky without enough defense per city. But, other than that, large number of defenders don't do enough.

An army of cavalry is hardly ever attacked.

The AIs won't attack a 7/12 3 defense army before tanks, unless they can bombard it. This can be, and has been, quite useful for protecting workers making railroads. As an example, an army attacks and gets slightly wounded, still has some movement having captured a city, and then goes and protects workers on the rail network. And that helps pick up the attack turn-pace.

According to Lord Emsworth, they also won't attack an infantry in a fortress with an artillery proper unit.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

In regards to arty, well, 20-25 already does the job. In the previous eras, 8-10 is all that you can carry. Really.

I was carrying 40 arty stacks because I was roleplaying total war. As in, what matters is that your arty gets the enemy down to red, I however was using level bombing and huge arty stacks to deliberately reduce AI cities to rubble and kill their citizens. That's excessive in most situations, I know.

As for INF, you want big INF stacks to do offensive stacks because by the time you get them, CAV is obsolete and without arty will get perhaps at least 50-60% casualties in my experience. In that lull before you can get tanks, INF does the job better than cavalry in many situations IMO. But arty is your bread and butter, even when the tanks come rolling in.

 

[Spoonwood]

With republic selling technologies for gold per turn earlier becomes more viable. With more gold, you can purchase armies, or disconnect resources and then upgrade units.

you likely pay more than 120 gpt in army support. Communism erases that. That 120gpt goes back to you.

Can easily make more than that on a Deity or Demigod standard or larger map by selling industrial age technology in a republic. You can also sign a military alliance or pay for luxuries and/or resources with that technology. So, the profit from Republic ends up more than the cost. Horseman upgraded to cavlary costs only 30 shields of time, not 80 shields. Communism needs about double the production to keep with a large horseman -> cavalry upgrading program OR significant army short-rushing/buying. It's not that strong.

You have a lot of backwater towns with foreign pop. Communism makes it easier to manage by just whipping away these foreign dudes, whatever, and replacing them with your own. Also makes it less likely to defect on the long run.

Cities like that can either produce workers, settlers, or maybe in the case of an ill-timed forest chop, a cannon. The more settlers in general, the quicker the conquering pace can become with artillery proper.

You're often at war and face a lot of WW.

War weariness doesn't accrue, because of the time of war. There is no war weariness upon declaration, and none after a single battle. The biggest cause of war weariness comes from losing cities. Most turns of wars have no war weariness.

 

[justanick]

a) you likely pay more than 120 gpt in army support. Communism erases that. That 120gpt goes back to you.

Once you are that big, free unit support is likely to cover your entire military, hence a republic will not pay for unit support.

b) you have more than 60 cities. Communism makes it easier to manage your corrupt backwater.

I am not sure that this is true, but it certainly has the nicer look. And if you combine the low regular corruption with policemen specialists, then you can drop corruption to zero or almost zero. While you still have a corrupt shield and corrupt commerce a policemen is a sensible choice. Once it is only one of the two you are better of with a scientist specialist.

c) you pay a lot of gold in corruption fighting buildings, like police stations and courthouses. Communism saves you the hassle of paying support for such stuff in the first place. That means the gpt goes back to you.

Courthouses pay for themselves. Police stations barely do that. They tend save one shield and one commerce from corruption. This increases your output by 2 beakers and 2 shields. So in terms of mere commerce it is a tie.

d) You have a lot of backwater towns with foreign pop. Communism makes it easier to manage by just whipping away these foreign dudes, whatever, and replacing them with your own. Also makes it less likely to defect on the long run.

That is irrelevant. Once their home civilization is gone so is the flip risk. Whipping away has usually higher long term costs than letting a flip occur.

f) You're often at war and face a lot of WW. Communism spares you that.

That and imo only that really makes the difference. The other stuff is just nice to have.

g) You use 10-40% of the luxury slider. Communism, with the MP, corruption and the likelihood that you're big and already have\trade for lots of luxuries, minimizes that to 0% in more than 70% of the situations. That means all the gpt goes back to you, or goes to research, minimizing the Republic research boni.

That is irelevant. By the time you have researched communism you are also likely to have all 8 luxuries and thus 20 happy faces, which means zero need for the luxury slider.

So that means if you're beyond 60 cities, on any map but esp. the larger ones at any difficulty setting, Commie still makes a difference and gives you a decisive income, military support and corruption bonus. So that's basically my argument, and I know you're probably saying "but Republic", still in most practical game situations I faced with these situations switching to Commie was a life saver.

In my opinion it was no life saver. But it can easily seem that way. If instead you had played out the long republic, then your opinion might be the other way around. But that is spekulation. You made the decision to play in away that somewhat favours communism, but a different decision would lead to different results, obviously.

 

[justanick]

Horseman upgraded to cavalry costs only 30 shields of time, not 80 shields. Communism needs about double the production to keep with a large horseman -> cavalry upgrading program OR significant army short-rushing/buying. It's not that strong.

Upgrading knights to cavalry costs 30 gold, but upgrading horsemen to knights costs 120 gold. Upgrading horsemen to cavalry costs 150 gold. I donnot think that this is a good deal.

Also keep in mind that by the time you can go commie, your core cities may produce a cav every 2 to 3 turns. So there is no need to waste gold on that.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Upgrading knights to cavalry costs 30 gold, but upgrading horsemen to knights costs 120 gold. Upgrading horsemen to cavalry costs 150 gold. I donnot think that this is a good deal.

Based on that, it would seem that building Knights from scratch & disbanding Horsemen would be the way to go. (Assuming a trade for Chivalry ... I don't like researching it.)

 

[justanick]

Based on that, it would seem that building Knights from scratch & disbanding Horsemen would be the way to go.

That is how i like to approach it. That is assuming horsemen have been built at all. For mere deterrence swordmen are better.

 

[Lanzelot]

I see what you mean, and you're realy possibly one of the most eloquent Republic defenders I've seen here.

You haven't seen me yet... Republic beats any other government in almost any circumstances hands down... Which kind of makes the strategic choices for this game much poorer: as Republic is the first government that becomes available (using the slingshot), there is no reason to bother about any of the other governments that come later (Monarchy, Feudalism, Democracy, Communism & Fascism). Going for Republic and sticking with it for the rest of the game is basically a no-brainer. The game would be much richer, if a later government actually had to offer any real improvement over Republic, because then one would have to think hard about "ok, in my current situation, would another anarchy period be worth it and pay off in the long run?".
But as it is, the game lost one of its dimensions: valuing the pros and cons of different govs against each other and making the right choice in potentially different strategic circumstances.
A case in point is Democracy: you need to research two optional techs (slowing down your victory date in a science game (UN or spaceship) by at least 4 turns, then go through another anarchy period (where you lose another 2-9 turns...) only to end up with a government that's actually slightly worse than the one you already got... Don't know, what the game developers had been smoking here...

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

IIRC, Republic in Vanilla Civ3 did not have any unit support either. For what IIIRC too, Democrazy units cost just 1gpt too to offset lack of support, still it doesn't pay to transition to Democrazy at any circumstance.

I've tried to get all the sorts of key concepts and strategies that advanced players do when playing higher levels. I develop only my core, beeline to Republic, use the luxury slider, disband garrisons except for borders and hotspots (instead I develop a fire brigade of 4-6x cav to help me deal with ambushes), and even then, the income boost I get from Commie is priceless and unmatched.

One thing I have to say, is that it has been mentioned here that selling industrial age techs to AI can offset the support mali. That Republic support gives you enough free units: I can say for my own experience that the AI will hardly ever accept any deal involving gpt, even at higher levels, mostly because they simply don't have that gpt. I don't have any success selling techs to the AI for gpt. Even when I keep my reputation unblemished, the AI will only ever pay gpt for resources and luxuries and we're talking perhaps 50 or less. Not enough to pay for an army.

As for organic unit support in Republic, it's too pathetic. When you're fighting a 500+ unit AI army, Commie support makes the difference. In your pockets, and on the battlefield. That's why a late Commie Revolution (and you can even roleplay a sort of late Chinese or Russian turn to Commie like irl) is a strong option, because it enables to offset all the stretches and shortfalls that Republic faces with big civs, big armies and big opponents in the late game.

That is irrelevant. Once their home civilization is gone so is the flip risk. Whipping away has usually higher long term costs than letting a flip occur.

I never *ever* *ever* let a flip occur. The AI will get free units, your own units will die, you might lose an important resource or strategic position. It's best to whip rush culture and avoid a flip than to let one occur, esp. if the place has some strategic importance or a resource nearby.

 

[Spoonwood]

That Republic support gives you enough free units: I can say for my own experience that the AI will hardly ever accept any deal involving gpt, even at higher levels, mostly because they simply don't have that gpt.

The AIs often enough will have gpt post Currency on Demigod and above. It mostly depends on how long it takes their cities to grow.

When you're fighting a 500+ unit AI army

I don't think I've fought an army that big before. For the largest armies I've fought, also my strategy has revolved around using armies to either protect a large stack of cannons and gifting a nearby city to an ally before the end of the turn, or more commonly blocking off stacks of units with healthy enough cavalry armies. Or something like a funnel, which I used for maybe 3 turns in my recent France Sid game for the last war.

I never *ever* *ever* let a flip occur.

This is a mistake. It ends up quicker usually to play capture and keep. The AIs may get a free defender or two on flip and you might lose a defender or three o. k. But, neither is that big of a deal (also... if the AI lacks strategic resources and are pre-industrial, they might get a spear or pike, both of which make excellent target practice for a cavalry... so the flip CAN be advantageous long-term). Also, do note that a city can't flip on the turn you capture it. So, if you capture a city and don't need to defend it next turn, then it won't flip. There does exist the potential problem of a luxury lost, but that can get compensated for by keeping the luxury slider as high as it was before the war started.

It is most definitely not best to whip rush culture. Other than the first few wars, if not the first war, wars can go a small handful of turns. And no cities flip if their ruler is dead. More settlers and workers probably come as useful, and whipping doesn't help with that. Don't bother trying to crush resistance, unless it's the turn you capture a city, or the war has ended and the enemy leader is dead (in which case each unit quells one citizen per turn no exceptions).

 

[justanick]

IIRC, Republic in Vanilla Civ3 did not have any unit support either. For what IIIRC too, Democrazy units cost just 1gpt too to offset lack of support, still it doesn't pay to transition to Democrazy at any circumstance.

Fun Fact: When playing India in a PBEM i actually switched to democracy and it did pay off because all parties had mid sized empires, which meant that a democracy could maintain the largest army.

One thing I have to say, is that it has been mentioned here that selling industrial age techs to AI can offset the support mali. That Republic support gives you enough free units: I can say for my own experience that the AI will hardly ever accept any deal involving gpt, even at higher levels, mostly because they simply don't have that gpt.

That is a common thing early on at lower difficulty settings. You need reasonably strong AIs so they have the gtp in the first place. So those AIs needs to have large cities, all tiles roaded and they need to have luxuries and be a republic or a democracy for the commerce bonus so that you can harvest it.

As for organic unit support in Republic, it's too pathetic. When you're fighting a 500+ unit AI army, Commie support makes the difference.

Those are a lot of enemy units. If you let this happen at only emperor, then you may be doing something wrong. The one instance of such numbers that i recall is Bamspeedy at Beyond Sid. That is true crazy.

Beyond Sid

PTW 1.27-Default rules, except for difficulty level AI cost factor is 1 This means they can build temples for 6 shields, Pyramids for 40 shields, towns need 2 food to grow (growth every turn), 3 shields for a settler, etc. Free Units at start of game for AI: 3 settlers 6 workers 18...

forums.civfanatics.com

I never *ever* *ever* let a flip occur. The AI will get free units, your own units will die, you might lose an important resource or strategic position.

The idea is to not leave units after the one turn without flip risk. That way you donnot loose a unit while AI only gains one. Also of couse you keep a fire brigade nearby to immediately retake a flipped town.

If like i very much suggested you make sure that any war is ended swiftly after an intial few turns of semipassivity, then there are few turns for a flip to occur. Speed matters a lot.

 

[Lanzelot]

You need reasonably strong AIs so they have the gtp in the first place.

Yes, indeed. For that reason, when going for a science victory, I often gift the AI Republic early on and also gift them my spare lux resources (if they don't have anything to trade for them).
However, it still takes a difficulty level of at least Emperor for this to work. (And sometimes even on Emperor, the AIs are simply to weak to be of any help...)
On Demigod and Deity, it is much easier to let the AI work for you, e.g. let them build wonders for you, settle towns for you (which you can then take over later... ) or get big amounts of gpt and gold from them. Sid, however, is a different story. Here the AI is so overpowered, that it's impossible to "control" it, and you can easily end up losing...

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Yes, indeed. For that reason, when going for a science victory, I often gift the AI Republic early on and also gift them my spare lux resources (if they don't have anything to trade for them).
However, it still takes a difficulty level of at least Emperor for this to work. (And sometimes even on Emperor, the AIs are simply to weak to be of any help...)

Would this not also work on Monarch? I often run into this where the AI has no money or anything else to trade, and I basically just ignore them until they do. Would it be better to gift this stuff more often?

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

OK perhaps I exaggerated. Point is, from Emperor on, AI will sometimes spam huge stacks. Not the sort of thing that goes beyond 100 units. But still quite a challenge, you need at least 5-7x defenders, also you need to lure/reduce these stacks some way. It's much easier with 1gpt and extender support.

As for the AI paying for stuff, wel, I can imagine that on Deity they would start doing so. No luck on Emperor, though.

 

[Lanzelot]

I tried it on Monarch, but iirc, the amount of gpt you can get from them is mediocre at best. Also, on higher levels, sometimes I am lucky and the AI manages to research an industrial tech for me, that I can then trade, but no such luck on Monarch. I have played games, where I had to research the entire industrial age on my own, and the AI didn't contribute a single tech...
I think the AI simply grows too slowly, if it doesn't get at least 20% or even 30% discount on the food required for the next citizen. (And it's not smart enough to join workers to cities to get them big quickly.)
In the ancient age and early middle age, you can usually get some techs from the AI even on let's say Monarch of Regent, but by the end of the middle age, you are on your own. (Except for the freebees of the scientific tribes.)

 

[Lanzelot]

Point is, from Emperor on, AI will sometimes spam huge stacks.

What time period are we talking about here? Could be that you are "preparing too long" and let the AI build too many units, before you attack?! If you aim for a military victory right from the start, the game should be over by 400 AD, and I don't think the AI is capable of building 100 units by 400 AD on Emperor.