I think I may need help...

[Eyeoftiger]

Had a great game going last night...I was Babylon, and I was finishing up my space ship in a very tight race (I had not been honorable in terms of trade routes getting cut off, but I never broke RP or anything, so Dip was not an option). I was playing a Pangea map, and China and I had a RP. He was kicking the crap out of just about everyone else.

Then China breaks their deal with me in a surprise attack and 4 SOD's with about 40 MA's each show up knocking on my capital's door.

When it was finally my turn, my capital was razed (thus my ship was destroyed), 4 other cities had fallen, my civilization was in revolt (I was in demo), and orange goo was everywhere from the nukes he launched at me.

I was so mad that I couldn't even see straight. My wife was sitting next to me at her PC and she said, "Relax, it's only a game, and you're scaring the baby." (3 more months!) But I was just incensed beyond belief. I didn't even want to finish. So I turned the game off, opened the editor, and gave myself a start with a lot of modern units, and put China's starting location as close to mine as possible, and wiped them out on the first turn.

Has anyone else done this? Surprisingly, after doing it about 10 times, I felt much better.

 

[Iowasoxfan]

Houston, you may have a problem. You might want to think about taking a few days off. In lieu of playing, (and boy is this going to make your wife happy) sit and talk civ strategy to the baby. Good for the baby to hear your voice. Good luck with the baby!!

 

[rysingsun]

i dont think what the ai did was unreasonable. i mean .. wouldnt you have done the same thing if the ai were about to beat you in the space race and you had a superior army and tons of nukes? hats off to the ai for at least this one time making a wise decision though i can see with all the time invested how the sudden loss would be frustrating.

the fact that you were ahead in the space race may have meant to you that you were "winning" but judging by the balance of military power i would have to say that you were merely a "contender" at this point.

 

[microbe]

This reminds me of the old days when I treated an AI like a real friend. I mean, if they were gracious or even polite to me, I felt that they were great friends, and never wanted to hurt them, until they declared on me.

Nowadays I treat AI like AI, and wipe them out if needed without thinking twice.

 

[smeggo]

This reminds me of the old days when I treated an AI like a real friend. I mean, if they were gracious or even polite to me, I felt that they were great friends, and never wanted to hurt them, until they declared on me.

Nowadays I treat AI like AI, and wipe them out if needed without thinking twice.

Brought back the memeory of the first civilisation I ever wiped out, the Zulus.
Found it very difficult to do. Now not even a nanosecond of conscience is wasted before wasting them completely.

 

[dexters]

This reminds me of the old days when I treated an AI like a real friend. I mean, if they were gracious or even polite to me, I felt that they were great friends, and never wanted to hurt them, until they declared on me.

Nowadays I treat AI like AI, and wipe them out if needed without thinking twice.

The AI is not a friend, an enemy or just an AI. They are useful insofar as they advance your goals.

At least that's how I view the game.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

That's gotta suck, but to clear up your "have you done this?" question, yep-ish. I don't make a scenario, but I purposely pick on a civ in my next game if it kicked my ass in the last 1 (3 wipeouts in a row from me to the English, that's what you get for picking on me previously).

Gotta admit, the AI sounds pretty smart in this case to make that attack. Sounds like it thought about it strategically, but I understand how pissed you are and I'm not surprised. Don't think I've ever had that kinda attack happen to me but I've had 3 RoPs broken with me at once followed by a mass invasion, but I kicked their asses and went to space anyway

I know how easy it is to get attached to these games though (I'm a 15 y/o not doing school, I have alot of free time on my hands ><), you dedicate mulitple days to 1 game, it's a damn horrible feeling when you lose.

Look on the bright side, you got your ass kicked by a good level of computer, it's worse when you get kicked by a bad level of computer.

 

[dexters]

Your greatest mistake was probably signing that ROP agreement. As a rule of thumb, I don't sign an ROP with anyone other than those who are weaker than me and are heavily dependent on me for resources, luxuries etc. I've found one of the best ways to hedge against AI turning against you is to make them dependent of you. While the situation does not always present itself, the best way to tame a powerful neighbor or neighbours is to secure a monopoly on 1 major resource, usually iron, rubber or oil (other weaker civs may have it but as long as they dont have surplus to trade, its all good) and simply bleed your rivals dry and once you lock them in, short of a mistake on my part like an MPP activated war, the AI usually don't break their peace treaties with me. Luxuries seem to work as well, but it has to be a net dependence that generally works best. If your importing 3 luxuries from them and exporting 1, the AI would probably still surprise attack you.



The border penalty is one of the best defense you can have against a powerful neighbour. Mix in hills and mountains and even their fast units can get bogged down at the border, rush in arty's redline the attackers and pick off as many as you can, the rest, if damaged will retreat.

 

[Drakan]

Your greatest mistake was probably signing that ROP agreement. As a rule of thumb, I don't sign an ROP with anyone other than those who are weaker than me and are heavily dependent on me for resources, luxuries etc.

I'm afraid I don't quite agree with this remark. I always sign with all civs a RoP except with the AI civ I plan to be at war with. Very seldomly has the AI broken a RoP agreement with me. I trade alot, and that keeps them happy and my rep is very good. Also their attitude is almost always gracious towards me.

Signing RoP, at least in my three years experience with CivIII, is the best way to avoid wars with the AI.

In any case I feel glad that the AI for once took a very wise decision attacking you, I would've done exactly the same. You must balance your military might with the economy and science. Perhaps you were a science giant but a military dwarf. In any case, things like this make this game so addictive wanting you more. Easy on your wife

 

[dexters]

I'm afraid I don't quite agree with this remark. I always sign with all civs a RoP except with the AI civ I plan to be at war with. Very seldomly has the AI broken a RoP agreement with me. I trade alot, and that keeps them happy and my rep is very good. Also their attitude is almost always gracious towards me.

I trade a lot too.

I have a basic rule of thumb, and I call it the 'flexibility scale' the more diplomatic (not trades) deals you enter into with another AI the less flexible you become. RoP makes you less flexible in your ability to manage your environment and that is bad. At worse you get RoP raped, but the more common occurance would be unintended consequences of an RoP, mainly your neighbours doing things through your territory that conflicts with your goals.

Perhaps it is my playstyle but I prefer managing my rivals around me by exerting maximum influence on their ability to do things. The concept of balance of power comes to mind, and I try to balance the power even if I'm not the top player by doing everything in my playbook to that end.

That's not to say I never use RoP, I do, and its useful as long as it serves some purpose other than just attitude effects, but I don't agree with blind RoP with all your trading partners just for the heck of it. But whatever works, as we're not all the same player.

That said, the case we're presented here is different. China did an RoP rape and was probably quite powerful relative to the human player. A Civ of that size, trading partner or otherwise, does not deserve an RoP, its just invitation for a sneak attack, especially if the trading relationship is weak, and largely tech for gpt sort that the AI can afford to break, even if they are getting the GPT.


Conclusion:
I don't view the gracious attitude as any real bonus for RoP, it is more trouble than its worth. You can get quite close to that level of attitude in polite by just being a good trader and keeping a clean rep. In fact, my last game had Germany on Gracious without an RoP, just because we trade a lot and my reputation was spotless.

 

[BlackJAC]

Signing ROP agreements with your neighbours is fine when all you have are roads, but I've been attacked so many times when railroads are in place, it now makes me very wary of continuing these agreements once I acquire railroads. Losing many cities in 1-turn (I usually place most of my military on the borders and not in cities) just isn't worth keeping these agreements in place. I only continue ROP agreements if it's with another civ that's situated on a different continent.

 

[dexters]

Signing ROP agreements with your neighbours is fine when all you have are roads, but I've been attacked so many times when railroads are in place, it now makes me very wary of continuing these agreements once I acquire railroads. Losing many cities in 1-turn (I usually place most of my military on the borders and not in cities) just isn't worth keeping these agreements in place. I only continue ROP agreements if it's with another civ that's situated on a different continent.

The most effective post RR strat I've found, especially when AI rivals get massive unit support bonuses and production bonuses is to have a central reserve + fortified border towns. You can configure and move your defenses where its needed that way. And it is best used without an RoP, especially with any Civ that is in contention to win the game, histograph power wise. These are the ones most likely go to war, usually with bad results if an RoP is in place.

I'm generally not a big fan of RoP in any era they are more of a burden than anything really, especially if I don't get anything out of it.

I do sign RoPs if I need to project power (move my forces), help a weaker Civ by sending in my workers to improve their tiles, or to 'help' one side in a war I'm not involved in by giving one side RoP access allowing them to move their units quickly to the front and outflank the non RoP AI. The relationship though is almost always unbalanced as I'm usually the more powerful partner of the RoP treaty.

 

[stachnie]

I sometimes sign a ROP but only if it is absolutely necessary (e.g. if I need it to reach enemy's territory) and I NEVER do that after I have railroad network. And if I have a strong neighbour I almost always keep some offensive troops next to the border (unless I desperately need them somewhere else, of course). A surprise attack may cost me an unimportant town, maybe two but not a part of my core.


Best regards,

Slawomir Stachniewicz.

 

[Drakan]

Yes, in the case of Eyeoftiger perhaps he was very weak from a military standpoint. Nevertheless, I still sign RoP all the way 'till the end when I win my games, and that includes railroads.
Normally I'm fairly strong militarily in my deity games, so it's not as If I invite any neighbour to come and prey on me. I cannot speak for others, but I'm afraid I just cannot remember right now any RoP abuse I've suffered within the last year of playing C3C. I still believe it's the best preemptive measure in order to avoid undesired wars second only to actually taking the initiative and attacking first (that is inciting deceitfully the AI to declare war on you). The latter being naturally the best way to guarantee peace of mind. If you want Peace prepare for War.

 

[Eyeoftiger]

Yes, in the case of Eyeoftiger perhaps he was very weak from a military standpoint.

I was probably second in terms of military strength. I probably COULD have beaten China back, but it would have been laborious at best, and this game had gone on for hours...

My problem was they used my rails and attacked first. Like someone else said, I keep some units in my inner cities, but the majority along the borders for attack purposes. I never thought China would go after me since he was gracious towards me (and going back to the save, I remember that I was also giving him ivory and spices for GPT).

The main reason I had an RoP with him was that we used to have an MPP, but that expired, but the RoP was extended, and with him going after the guys on the other side of the landmass, it was just easier for him to get through instead of moving his units one tile at a time through my land...

Oh well...

 

[dexters]

Eyooftiger, Can you confirm again that you were indeed trading them 2 lux for gpt? were you importing anything from them? I'd like to know because if you were, you may have just stumbled into a scripted AI event people rarely see... that is the AI attacking to stop you from spacerace victory.

I still believe it's the best preemptive measure in order to avoid undesired wars

I don't understand this logic. If the AI wants to attack you, they will. I've watched my attitude with trading partners go from polite to annoyed over several turn with me doing nothing against them. The reason was AI has nowhere else to expand, it had a lot of troops, has high agression and was basically waiting for an excuse to go to war. All it took for them to declare was for me to use to spy exploit and do a failed spy mission.

If you want to avoid undersired wars, its better to be actually trading items with them rather than having agreements the AI can tear up. From my experience the AI doesnt let diplomatic agreements weigh them down and they're not constrained by the 20 turn limit either as they don't appear to get a rep hit like humans do. I've signed an MA with a Civ A against B only for Civ C which is also at war with me to sign an MA with Civ B them against me 2 turns later.

cannot speak for others, but I'm afraid I just cannot remember right now any RoP abuse I've suffered within the last year of playing C3C.

If you are a trader like you noted, your actual trading may have removed incentive to for them to attack you. You can do a quick test my trying to sign MA against someone you're at war with with a Civ that is trading resources with them. They will flat out refuse all deals, even if you include your core cities and 20k gold in it. I've actually tried it before just to see and it confirmed resource trades are valued extremely highly.

Even if you can avoid wars and keep your RoP through trades, I see other problems, mainly unintended consequences like one neighbor using your territory to quickly attack, severely weaken or kill off another neighbor. That's all good and fine, unless I'm trading with both, which is not good to me. Why help the AI? Heck, they may actually capture luxuries and resources you were trading to them and you just killed off two clients.

Try signing an RoP only with an equally powerful or more powerful Civ. Only tech for GPT deals with the AI paying you. No lux or resource trades. The AI can get very fickle and are easy prey to be bought into an MA against you.

 

[Spartanism]

I read that if a civ doesnt have the gpt to pay you for those lux it will declare war on you to break the agreement. No proof of it but that might be what happened to you. I sold 2techs to the dutch for 11k and 475per turn. I was very worried they would break the agreement simply because they were broke and I was getting over 600gpt per turn (including existing deals)

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Hi, all
the closing space race victory allways causes the other big civ in the game to declare on me. Thats because I play emperor and to get space I research my last techs, it gives the AI the time to realise it's almost beaten and it must do something. However, no RoP ever at this moment of the game.

 

[Eyeoftiger]

Dexters, those quotes were from someone else, not me. But you probably already knew that.

 

[dexters]

Dexters, those quotes were from someone else, not me. But you probably already knew that.

Yes. I was responding to you and another person. I should have made it clear. My bad.

Can you confirm again that you were indeed trading them 2 lux for gpt? were you importing anything from them? I'd like to know because if you were, you may have just stumbled into a scripted AI event people rarely see... that is the AI attacking to stop you from spacerace victory