I want Saltpeter back

[The Navy Seal]

In civ4 there isn't any recource required to get musketman I don't like that.

 

[MazX_TheDog]

Thats why they suck.

 

[Darwin420]

Not that you'd have enough time to ensure you had a saltpeter connection, and then build some quickly-outclassed muskets...

 

[gdgrimm]

I think it's OK.

Currently, resource constraints can adjust your Ancient-Medieval era military, but even with no resources at all, you can survive. Build enough Archers/Longbowman and the AI will leave you alone or pay a fair price for attacking (though stopping pillaging can be difficult). And now with Trebs, you can even effectively do some city attacks with nothing but Longbowmen to support the Trebs, and Trebs to take the city -- no resources necessary at all.

Making saltpeter a requirement for gunpowder units (with no other major changes) would mean somebody without that resource wouldn't be able to field an effective military during the Renaissance to Modern era.

And if you were just suggesting Saltpeter as a req. for only Musketmen, well, as another poster pointed out, you'd have to make Musketmen much more useful before anybody would really care about the requirement.

 

[kristopherb]

saltpeter should double the the producyion of all gunpwder based units,it would be more balanced(ajust the production cost first)

 

[dh_epic]

1: Gunpowder was EXTREMELY easy to find/make. Almost like, say, cloth.

2: Resources tend to reward players with huge territories, and penalize those who have been relegated to a small chunk of land. Having gunpowder units require saltpeter would basically mean that the game would be over for most Civilizations before the end of the medieval era.

Is that why you're making this suggestion? Because you were battling the AI, then they discovered gunpowder, and they became too hard for you to kill?

 

[Older than Dirt]

What a great idea to make the game even more complicated and unrealistic.

 

[AfterShafter]

What a great idea to make the game even more complicated and unrealistic.

Complicated, yes... But are you saying it's more realistic to be able to make gunpowder with no saltpeter at all?

 

[Canis Latrans]

Musketeers are useful-- it is cheaper to buy the upgrade to a Musketeer, then later buy the next upgrade to Rifleman, rathern than make the more expensive jump from Bowman to Rifleman later. If you're on a tight budget, Musketeers are a good place-holder for gradual upgrade purchases.

 

[warpstorm]

Like dh_epic said, saltpeter is so common that it doesn't make sense to be a rare resource.

So how do you make saltpeter? From the wikipedia entry:

"Historically, nitre-beds were prepared by mixing manure with either mortar or wood ashes, common earth and organic materials such as straw to give porosity to a compost pile typically 1.5 metres high by 2 metres wide by 5 metres long. The heap was usually under a cover from the rain, kept moist with urine, turned often to accelerate the decomposition and leached with water after approximately one year. The liquid containing various nitrates was then converted with wood ashes to potassium nitrates, crystallized and refined for use in gunpowder."

I see nothing here that makes for a rare resource.

 

[Proteus]

saltpeter should double the the producyion of all gunpwder based units,it would be more balanced(ajust the production cost first)

IMHO that should be the case with every strategic resource.
I.e. no hard requirement, meaning that you cannot build a unit without the resoruces,
but rather a soft requirement, meaning that without the resource it takes longer to build units that require this resource for example double the building times for every resource missen, which could lead to 4 times the building times for modern units that require 2 resources, where you don´t have both of them (perhaps with exception of nukes which you should only be able to build if you have uranium)

 

[Palantir30]

Complicated, yes... But are you saying it's more realistic to be able to make gunpowder with no saltpeter at all?

Yes, because most early rennaisance saltpeter was made from urine. Didnt exactly have to mine for that in most places...

 

[AfterShafter]

Yes, because most early rennaisance saltpeter was made from urine. Didnt exactly have to mine for that in most places...

Well, I did some reading, and it largely wasn't mined, but it sure wasn't just "made from urine" on any large scale.

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/saltpeter.html

Anyways, if we're being such sticklers over there being saltpeter as a resource, and how it just wouldn't make sense for it to be a rare resource... I don't suppose any of you have actually played Civ IV before? You know, where horses/pigs/cows/sheep are stationary resource that never move, can't be destroyed (only the stables/pasture) and can't be created in a civilization that doesn't have them? Same deal for bananas? Do you really get the feeling that this game is focused more on making sure every resource acts entirely true to life rather than beneficial for gameplay?

Just seems a bit silly to me to be such sticklers for resource realism when it's obvious the spirit of the game doesn't invite that nearly so much as an argument about whether the resrouces serves a useful gameplay purpose.

 

[Palantir30]

Well, I did some reading, and it largely wasn't mined, but it sure wasn't just "made from urine" on any large scale.

Read about Tudor times in England, when there was a whole civil service for "collecting the King's water".

That, and read Warpstorm's reference to the Wikki as the Wikki actually has it right for a change.

And I was responding specifically to someone who asked about realism (that someone was you, by the way. Dont ask about realism if that's not what you want to argue about). Others have handled the topic from a gameplay standpoint quite well and there was no need to add more.

 

[AfterShafter]

Read about Tudor times in England, when there was a whole civil service for "collecting the King's water".

That, and read Warpstorm's reference to the Wikki as the Wikki actually has it right for a change.

And I was responding specifically to someone who asked about realism (that someone was you, by the way. Dont ask about realism if that's not what you want to argue about). Others have handled the topic from a gameplay standpoint quite well and there was no need to add more.

Please don't misrepresent me.

"But are you saying it's more realistic to be able to make gunpowder with no saltpeter at all?"

I'm didn't come into here saying "make it realistic - have it mined!" I came in saying "You think it's more realistic when saltpeter just magically appears when you get the tech?" My initial statement was roughly "Ok, so saltpeter being mined isn't realistic... Is it just magically appearing better?"

If YOU want to argue realism now, is there any identified in game process by which saltpeter is produced? Is "kings water" collected, are processing operations set up to produce saltpeter from stables, or later "salpeter plants" being established? No, of course not - the saltpeter is just magically there when you get gunpowder. I haven't seen you arguing for realism, just being picky about one unrealistic presentation of saltpeter in game as opposed to another - because yes, as is, the game's presentation of saltpeter (just magically there when you get the gunpowder tech) is about as realistic as it being mined, it being produced through organized operations, etc.

Like other resources in the game, it is misrepresented - and it could be quite easily become a resource and stay consistent with the skewed resource presentation already existing in the game.

So please, don't try and drag me into your "OMG Civ isn't realistic enough!" school of thought... I'd much rather see the game made a more pleasantly complex experience, even if we get a few more veritable 4000 year old static pig farms out there as a result. I do find it funny that people are willing to argue that saltpeter being minded would be unrealistic, but think that the current completely unrepresented production of saltpeter is just fine and dandy.

 

[AfterShafter]

Like dh_epic said, saltpeter is so common that it doesn't make sense to be a rare resource.

Meh, you won't likely see anything suggesting that some civilizations would be unable to breed cattle by the time they can make modern armor, but currently, that's the way Civ IV works in many cases. With this in mind (and other examples like it), why argue about that it's unrealistic as opposed to presenting a gameplay argument? Seems the latter is the only one that really concerns Civ.

 

[dh_epic]

Modern era aside (heaven knows Civ is horrible at nearly all things modern, let's not talk about agriculture)...

There is NO historical example of someone controlling so much Saltpeter, while another nation was stuck saying "oh man, if only we could expand Eastward, we would have the Saltpeter we need for firearms!" There are dozens and dozens of resources in the world, but only a few have any STRATEGIC significance.

Saltpeter is not one of them. It's everywhere.

 

[warpstorm]

One of the important aspects of gunpowder was that it was so easy and cheap to make and the weapons that used it that even poor farmers had a musket.

 

[Commander Bello]

AfterShafter has definately a point in arguing about other ressources then.

A nation being able to get saltpeter or gunpowder in general shouldn't be able to get cows, pigs or whatever else? What about fish? Nations shouldn't be able to breed their own stock of horses? C'mon!
There would be really only 10 - 12 ressources of stone at the whole globe? What the heck are you people talking about?


Without trying to compare Civ3 and Civ4, the necessity to collect saltpeter for sure added some strategic element to Civ3, which now is just missing.

 

[Mango]

You discover gunpowder as a tech, meaning you discover how to make it. Gunpowder isn't something that is dug out of the ground like copper, iron or coal. It's made, therefore it should not require a resource.