Idea for a mod to religion: fundamentalism

[Makbeth]

Hey guys, first post, so hi all!

I've noticed that religion is a very powerful tool in-game for sustaining a good research rate while building huge empires. While that has been true in many cases in the real world, there's also another real-world phenomenon that reverses that effect: Fundamentalism.

For example, the Arab nations were arguably the scientific powerhouse of the world until the 1100's, when a fundamentalist sect took over and reversed the philosophy that one comes to know God by learning about and describing the universe, saying that now it was a sin to look too closely at God's work. Had that not happened, the present-day power positions of the Middle East and the West might have been switched (we were in the Dark Ages while the Arabs were naming 2/3 of the stars now known to science and inventing Algebra). A similar thing might happen to the US if the Intelligent Design movement wins.

This is a semi-random type event in history, so I think an interesting BTS mod would be a random event that occurs during any revolution when the religious civic of the new government is Organized Religion or Theocracy (20% or 35% chance of occurrence respectively). When fundamentalism takes hold, all domestic cities with the state religion lose 30% research. This penalty is reduced by 10% for each other religion in the city.

Harsh, right? Well, the plus side of it is that, since state-supported fundamentalism tends to be an internally unifying phenomenon (even with the repressive cultural standards that come with it) we can give a bonus to the fundamentalist government that promotes expansion. Maybe a +2 bonus to the shrine-generated gold, or a reduction in the city maintenance. I also think a reduction in war-weariness would be appropriate.

This balances the power of religion a bit. Religious states run the risk of losing their research in return for rapid expansion, while secular states can more reliably stay ahead in research, but will tend to be smaller and less eager to go to war, at least until they are advanced enough to try conquering the religious states. This also checks the power of the AP a bit, because Org.-Rel. and Theocracy are the best ways for the owner of the AP to spread their faith early in the game.

Now, a fundamentalist state can still keep up in the tech race, but they have to manage it well. They need multiple religions, and they need to take advantage of the ability to spread so they generate as much science as possible. Later in the game, if they've built enough courthouses, banks, and marketplaces, they can secularize through revolution and get a HUGE boost in science from the sheer number of cities they have.

Part of my desire to do this is that, except for the diplomacy effects (sometimes convenient, sometimes inconvenient; Isabella greatly annoys me so I tend to be glad that she always gives me an excuse to wipe her civ out) religions are something of a no-brainer in CIV4, and I think that the decision to be a religious state should be a little harder to make.

So, what do you think? If I've missed something in the dynamics of the game that would make or break this mod, please give me your thoughts on it.

Thanks all.

 

[LightSpectra]

That's represented by free religion giving a 10% science bonus in each city, I think.

 

[Makbeth]

True, but Free Religion happens way too late in the game to matter in the classical/medieval eras, real-world religious states are not guaranteed to fall into a state of anti-naturalist fundamentalism, secularization of a fundamentalist state often results in a renaissance period, like ours when we exited the dark ages, and in many cases that renaissance is not so much a surging forward as a catching up.

Mostly I dislike how free religion is currently implemented because it doesn't do enough to distinguish secular states from religious ones, and it makes it so religion is always a good thing.

 

[Figaro]

I agree that the religious civics don't quite make sense (surely Theocracy is a governmental model and therefore should be in the left column?), and the lack of distinction between states merely permitting all religions within their borders and states actively discouraging religion (a la the USSR). I do support the idea of religion being a double edged sword, and don't think that would go against Firaxis's non-offending policy - so long as you make all the different religions essentially the same, it would have been a good idea for them to represent some of the negative sides of religion.

 

[Peng Qi]

(surely Theocracy is a governmental model and therefore should be in the left column?)

False. Theocracy is not a form of government, it is a trait that can be present in any form. For example, the Papal State was a Despotic Theocracy. Utrecht was a Representative Theocracy (I think). Iran is currently a Military State Theocracy.

 

[Makbeth]

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm going for. A nearly universal tactic in my games and in most people's is the "Get-buddhism-or-hinduism-then-go-OR-and-spread-religion-like-mad-for-permanent-100%-science.

Variety is the spice of life, so I want to make it so that those who don't found a religion, or choose not to have a state religion, can take their own route to success and not have to deal with these massive holy empires who have better tech than you. You can still have a holy city, and get gold from it, but you can't spread it as easily or as exclusively unless you take the risk of going fundamentalist. It also emulates the way that sometimes the history of a religion determines the course of action a nation will take.

 

[obliterate]

In the game there is no incentive to stay out of relgion and is in fact disadvantageous not to spread your religion or religions around. I think your suggestion helps even it out a bit.

 

[Peng Qi]

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm going for. A nearly universal tactic in my games and in most people's is the "Get-buddhism-or-hinduism-then-go-OR-and-spread-religion-like-mad-for-permanent-100%-science.

The solution isn't more random events. After all, that just means that sometimes people who do that get gimped and sometimes they don't, further taking the skill out of the game and putting it in the hands of luck. The solution is to fix how the religion buildings work. Honestly, I think +1 gold/city with religion is overpowered. That's what needs to change; adding more events to randomly gimp good strategies needlessly hurts people who are good at the game.

In the game there is no incentive to stay out of relgion and is in fact disadvantageous not to spread your religion or religions around.

You mean just like real life?

 

[obliterate]

(You mean just like real life? [)

gggrrrrrrrrrrrhhh

 

[DigitalBoy]

I think the most reasonable way to balance religion (not that I think it's imbalanced) is to give a small increase in maintenance to cities with state religions to represent state sponsorship of that religion. Sort of the same idea as corporations, only with a maitenance increase not quite as extreme.

 

[Peng Qi]

I think the most reasonable way to balance religion (not that I think it's imbalanced) is to give a small increase in maintenance to cities with state religions to represent state sponsorship of that religion. Sort of the same idea as corporations, only with a maitenance increase not quite as extreme.

But that gimps people who use a religion, but didn't found one.

 

[LightSpectra]

give a small increase in maintenance to cities with state religions to represent state sponsorship of that religion. Sort of the same idea as corporations, only with a maitenance increase not quite as extreme.

I would say that if a city only has the state religion, the maintenance cost would decrease as there's less squabling over theocratic issues. Rather, religions that aren't of your state religion should increase maintenance cost.

 

[obliterate]

I don't think you can balance it with giving a penalty to having a religion. There should be a bonus to not having a state religion before you get free religion. Which I think should be beefed up.

 

[skallben]

The solution isn't more random events. After all, that just means that sometimes people who do that get gimped and sometimes they don't, further taking the skill out of the game and putting it in the hands of luck. The solution is to fix how the religion buildings work. Honestly, I think +1 gold/city with religion is overpowered. That's what needs to change; adding more events to randomly gimp good strategies needlessly hurts people who are good at the game.

You know, for once I actually agree with you - isnt that amusing.

OT: Yeah, I agree with your point just look at how the church held back great men like Galileo or Leonardo da Vinci.

 

[LightSpectra]

OT: Yeah, I agree with your point just look at how the church held back great men like Galileo

His trial was based on disrespect of the Papacy, not because they were trying to hold on to literal interpretations of scripture. They allowed him to publish his scientific works so long as he did not try to make theological arguments.

A better example would be fundamentalists trying to push young earth creationism back into schools.

 

[QBurrito]

You are full of crap.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

 

[LightSpectra]

At the time, he had no way to prove heliocentricity. The technology for such a thing wasn't available until a little bit later. His ardent grip to his theory was seen as just a rebellion by the authorities.

What that document doesn't mention is what happened a little bit later:

At Galileo’s request, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit—one of the most important Catholic theologians of the day—issued a certificate that, although it forbade Galileo to hold or defend the heliocentric theory, did not prevent him from conjecturing it.

So he was allowed to continue research.

 

[Makbeth]

Uh-oh, here go the religion debates!

The universal touchy subject, or the academic equivalent of nitroglycerin.

Fun stuff.

I prefer to think of this dynamic less in terms of dumb luck than risk. The whole game is structured around risk anyway, since you have to commit to a victory plan well before you know if it's going to work. A civ that aims for a culture victory is taking the risk that they can get it before someone else wins another way.

That's also why you have the choice of Buddhism vs Hinduism. One is faster, the other takes longer but has a fallback position if you don't get the tech fast enough.

Now religion has a risk: like in real life, it can hijack the course of national history.

 

[King of Town]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, bring back fanatics!!!!

 

[obliterate]

What were Fanatics?