Idea on money and trade

[Dida]

Right now, the main source of gold is by working on the tiles. I think this is extremely unrealistic, because unlike rice and grains, money do not grow in the fields. The main way that people make money these days are actually by trading.
There should be more things to produce than just shield and food and gold. We should be able to produce something and sell it to make money. This would be just like in the game Emporer: Rise of the Middle Kingdom, we build a jade carver's shop to carve raw jade, or a silk waving shop to wave raw silk and sell them to the local population, or to another city or to another nation to make profit. This would be the main way for civs to make money. No money is made by working on a tile, unless the tile has a gold bonus resource. Likewise, food and shield can also be traded domestically or internationally. This would allow some of your cities to develope into international economic center, like New York City.
Strategic resource should be reworked as well. Right now, if you have but 1 resource of oil, it allows you to build infinite number of tanks and planes, which isn't realistic. resources like oil should work like in Rise of Nations. After you build an oil drill on an oil resource and assign someone to work on it, you rip a certain number of oil from it every turn. Let say, 30 million bucket per turn per oil well. A tank might require 10 oil to build, a bomber might require 15. Just like everything else, you can sell your strategic resource.

 

[Dr. Broom]

I agree that the current way of making money in civ is absolutely HORRIBLE but I do not think the Rise of Nations way is the answer. While they are at it they can fix the shield generation too.

 

[Dida]

I advocated Rise of the Middle Kingdom's way as answer to the money problem. I advocated Rise of Nations' way as answer to the resource handling problem.

 

[MSTK]

Oil does run out, IIRC.

 

[ants]

I think something more in line with Civ2's caravans would be a good way to go. If you had a system where caravans created trade links, which helped both countries, you could get the Switzerland effect. Ie, the big bad Germany doesn't invade because you are part of their wealth generation. Then, if you include things like if you got lots of trade contacts, a possibility of gaining technologies other countries have (since you can observe it in action), and allow the hiring of mercenaries, then being an economic superweight would be one way of playing the game.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Well, the idea is that the trade arrows represent local trade. That's why roads improve it. I don't really see what's so horrible about it.

 

[Mewtarthio]

It is just a tad unrealistic that a single patch of road generated trade when it's not connected to anything (I usually build a lonely patch of road wherever my first citizen is working. Apparently they rip up the road and sell it as scrap).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I have given these matters much thought in some of my other threads, and this is how I proposed to deal with it:

1) A city's WEALTH is based on city size, resources (bonus/luxury and Strategic), demographic factors (mostly workers, or mostly middle-class?) and appropriate wealth generating improvements.

2) A citys INCOME, per turn, is equal to its Wealth+(Wealth/10) per shield/food or science marker.

3) This is where I get a 'little' hazy. Either a cities per turn income OR its wealth are multiplied by a 'trade' factor-this could be based on one of the following: a) The number of roads, rails and/or rivers which ACTIVELY connect the city to the trade network (So, if a city was a 'trade nexus', with 4 roads and a river connecting it to other cities-either in your nation or foreign nations-it would have a much greater wealth and/or income than an 'end of the line' city with just one road connecting it into the trade network). b) The number of cities within the trade network to which the city is connected (so if a city is connected into a trade network, by road, consisting of 15 cities, it will have a greater wealth than if the trade network consisted of only 5 cities!) Of course, there is nothing to make both a factor. Perhaps with (a) effecting wealth and (b) effecting income! This is how such a situation might look City Wealth= Wealth*(# and type of 'active trade routes'). City income=(CityWealth+(Wealth/10) per commodity)*(# of cities in trade network/X)! Under this model, a wealthy city with lots of commodities in a large empire would, on average, be a lot more wealthy than a wealthy city which was commodity poor and/or in a small empire!

4) Each turn, a city contributes x% of its per turn income to the national treasury, based on the age you are in and the 'tithe' setting you have set!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, second part of my thoughts on this subject! The formula I posted above assumes a passive commodity trading system underlying a city's economy! On top of this, though, there should also be an ACTIVE trade in both raw and manufactured goods. In this system, you vector shields, food and/or 'lightbulbs' to your empires 'Trading Centre', where it can be distributed to other cities-or even traded to other nations! The base value of these commodities is dependant on the selling cities wealth, but is multiplied by 'relative' distance of the city, from the capital, and the relative scarcity of the commodity being vectored (if applicable). This amount is paid from the national treasury. The same system works when disbursing shields/food/lightbulbs TO a city, with the cost being paid by the recipient city TO the national treasury!
Anyway, I know its pretty full on, but the majority of the calculations are done by the computer, so all the player has to do is work out where his/her needs lie, and which cities are the best to provide them-at the best cost! Hope it all makes sense though !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[akulla]

I think in addition, a CIV should be able to borrow money for Campagns -- this was standard operating procedure during most of the Middle Ages and even today Governements must raze a tax levy. Also, being able to sell off a portion of a territory would be cool.

 

[Trade-peror]

My suggestion is the Unified Economic Theory, now in its Second Edition (link is in my signature). I almost eliminate the idea that roads can generate wealth at all (the only exception is when they are being used to facilitate the trading of other goods) and set the basis of the economy in the selling of commodities to either local, regional, or international markets. These flows of wealth are then subject to a completely revamped and more innovative approach to taxation. Other indirectly related features, such as scientific progress, education, city improvements, the military, and international relations, are also linked in ways more fundamental than they currently are in Civ. Again, the link to this thread is in my signature--and please post any comments or suggestions if you would like!

 

[searcheagle]

I really would not like to see the money and trade changed that much. While this would add more to the economic system in Civ, I think it would add to much complexity, difficulty in understanding the concept, and more micromanagement. I would like see changes in the ability to trade finished/transformed goods (steel, autos, radios, etc.) and have these have implications for required resources.

The other area: The ability to set a tax rate. This would have implications for finances and economic growth.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I don't think that such a model requires micromanagement, Searcheagle. For instance, you have your city screen with the food and shield production-just as in Civ3! You click on your shield line, and a pop-up appears with TWO slide bars-1 you adjust to change the number of shields that city vectors to the central 'market place' at the capital (a neccessary artifice, I fear!), and the second slider would be to adjust how many shields are converted to 'manufactured' goods. If your city is not connected to the trade network, then slider one will be 'greyed out'. The exact same system could be applied to food without difficulty! Every other aspect of the model is determined, automatically, by the computer!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I thought that a working example might be helpful. Say you have a city which has a wealth of 60! It also makes 20 shields per turn and 10 food per turn. The city can use these food and shields for their traditional purposes (i.e. aiding population growth and building units/improvements), and the city will earn 3gpt for each 'food' and 6 gpt for each shield (which amounts to 30gpt for the food and 120gpt for the shields=150gpt total!) The player, though, has the option to click on one of the commodities to alter its 'function'. The player clicks on the shield bar and brings up the slider(s). He decides to shift 10 shields into 'manufacturing', giving him around 10 'processed' shields, at a value of 9 gpt each (around 1.5x normal value) or 90gpt total-a 30gpt 'profit' for the city, at the cost of build speed. Also, a certain number of 'processed' goods are required by a city to retain its current happiness (depending on its size), though creating more can boost happiness. He also adjusts the 'vector' slider to shift another 5 shields to the central 'trade pool'. Assuming no waste factor based on distance and current era, all 5 of these shields should arrive at the capital for later disbursement. If this city is 8 squares from the capital, then these shields will earn him 24 gpt each, or a whopping 120gpt!! Again, this comes at the cost of normal production, and comes out of the national coffers each turn (which could send your nation into debt)! Of course, a proportion of a cities income is tithed, automatically, to your national treasury each turn, so this may end up balancing out! Also, the shields in your 'trade pool' can be sent to other cities, or traded to other nations-which earns money for your national treasury.
Please note that all of the numbers I have quoted above are arbitrary, and would be based on gameplay balance. However, you should be able to see that almost ALL of the elements of this model are automatically handled by the computer, with only the sliders being neccessary for the player. Even this could be placed in the hands of your governer and/or treasurer-if you felt it was too much to handle!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.