I think the Grigori should not only be the early rushers they are right now, but should have some peaceful way to use their special powers. I know the can also be quite good lategame, with the upgrade to Luonnatar, but that's all just an aggressive strategy, which isn't their flavor IMHO. Cassiel starts out with pacifism, so his abilities should go beyond early warmongering. So how about giving the Grigori a production bonus in their city equal to the level of the most experienced unit? This would be quite synergistic with their heroes, but wouldn't be broken, because the civilizations with special production abilities get probably higher boni. By this way you would consider keeping industrious, because with a high base production the 50% bonus beginns to pay off. Another possibility would be that you are able to choose which good you get (research, production, gold, culture or even gp of a certain type).
Idea to make Grigori more interesting beyond warmongering
- Thread starter Imuratep
- Start date
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I don't like the Grigori as early rushers or warmongers. I'm also not a fan of your proposals. They don't make a whole lot of sense, and they seems extremely hard to implement.
A couple things I've proposed often before:
Make Luonnatar appear earlier, and with more abilities. I like making them require Philosophy, but also moving Philosophy to come 1 tier later (requiring either way of the wicked or way fo the wise, and not being a prereq for Priesthood), be more expensive, and be the prereq for Republic. I make Luonnatar weaker, but let them target disciples in stacks. I remove their channeling and Inquisitor promotions, but give them a unit-specific spell, "Enlighten," which works like Inquisition but ignores state religion, letting them remove even the state religion from neighboring cities. I also let them move though rival territory without open borders, so that they can do that more effectively. I'm also thinking it would be nice for the spell to be able to remove religions from units. Disciples that give up their religion might have a chance to defect and become Luonnatar, or they might just loose their faith and so not be able to use spells anymore.
I like letting upgraded Adventurers have a spell that turns them back to Adventurers, with all their promotions and levels intact. Immortals that have experience as Beastmasters and Archmages are awesome. Of course, this doesn't exactly make them more pacifistic. It might be a good idea for Adventurers to loose the Hero promotion (especially since the Natherblade, which give the bonus vs Heroes, is said to "strike strongest against those whom the angels have favored most;" I don't think that anti-religious Grigori are the Angel's favorites), and get a different "adventurer promotion" that grants the spell, better results from exploring lairs, and extra xp from combat. Also, some units would need changing to prevent exploits (like adventurers being able to get an infinate number of free promotions if they keep turning to arcane units).
I also usually let Adventurers settle as "local legends," which generate culture, adventurer GPP, and 1 xp for units built there.
A couple things I've proposed often before:
Make Luonnatar appear earlier, and with more abilities. I like making them require Philosophy, but also moving Philosophy to come 1 tier later (requiring either way of the wicked or way fo the wise, and not being a prereq for Priesthood), be more expensive, and be the prereq for Republic. I make Luonnatar weaker, but let them target disciples in stacks. I remove their channeling and Inquisitor promotions, but give them a unit-specific spell, "Enlighten," which works like Inquisition but ignores state religion, letting them remove even the state religion from neighboring cities. I also let them move though rival territory without open borders, so that they can do that more effectively. I'm also thinking it would be nice for the spell to be able to remove religions from units. Disciples that give up their religion might have a chance to defect and become Luonnatar, or they might just loose their faith and so not be able to use spells anymore.
I like letting upgraded Adventurers have a spell that turns them back to Adventurers, with all their promotions and levels intact. Immortals that have experience as Beastmasters and Archmages are awesome. Of course, this doesn't exactly make them more pacifistic. It might be a good idea for Adventurers to loose the Hero promotion (especially since the Natherblade, which give the bonus vs Heroes, is said to "strike strongest against those whom the angels have favored most;" I don't think that anti-religious Grigori are the Angel's favorites), and get a different "adventurer promotion" that grants the spell, better results from exploring lairs, and extra xp from combat. Also, some units would need changing to prevent exploits (like adventurers being able to get an infinate number of free promotions if they keep turning to arcane units).
I also usually let Adventurers settle as "local legends," which generate culture, adventurer GPP, and 1 xp for units built there.
Perhaps I should have said what I imagined flavorwise by my idea. Like Wonders great Heroes inspire people, so they want to follow his root (+X :GP: and/or 
/
- think of the spell inspiration) and they become proud of their civilization (MiKas suggestion, which I also like a lot) and with his experience the hero can teach people to work more efficient (+
perhaps a procentual bonus would fit this more).
Concerning implementation perhaps you could give the Grigori different spells (= The three possibilities I mentioned in this post) only usable if you have the hero promotion (They could be an upgrade by themselves and they could be mutually exclusive to balance them out a bit), that give the city +X of the said value (by buildings similar to the inspiration or hope buildings)
/ - think of the spell inspiration) and they become proud of their civilization (MiKas suggestion, which I also like a lot) and with his experience the hero can teach people to work more efficient (+ perhaps a procentual bonus would fit this more).Concerning implementation perhaps you could give the Grigori different spells (= The three possibilities I mentioned in this post) only usable if you have the hero promotion (They could be an upgrade by themselves and they could be mutually exclusive to balance them out a bit), that give the city +X of the said value (by buildings similar to the inspiration or hope buildings)
Arctic Circle
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2008
- Messages
- 473
This spell, and the scale of its effects, could be based on Age?
The units in FF that earn the Adventurer promotion (by successfully navigating a lair or whatever) don't seem to get much of an advantage as stated when then move on to a new lair. The rate at which they get negative results from the lair is still very high IMO despite the promotion.
Blackmantle
King
@ Sarisin: To quote another comment from the forums here again, lets just say that the human mind is tricksy. 
Also Adventurer just gives a rather small increse to results (i belive 10 better out of a 200 or so possible results. Might even be 300 or 400. Don't know the code for sure.)
But Level should play a significant role as well if i remember rightly.
So if you field a Level 10 Adventurer (promoted unit, not unit-type,
don't know yet! (will soon, installing.
) if that has made it into main FFH2) it will be more significant and tangiable...
Green adventurers (again adventurer-promoted units) are really not all that hot for exploring lairs (especially those early scouts and warriors). In fact it might be worth to treasure them a bit until you get a few levels and upgrades. A Level 5 Axemen / Hunter is an unterly different thing when he / she is out exploring allready. 
But i agree with Marnok here. Heroes (not only Grigori ones) should get a hefty bonus (more like 20 or even 25) and Grigori might get along with an additional one (of 10? for all their units?). Another thing the explorable Lairs could "fix". Thanks again for that excellent part Marnok.
Also Adventurer just gives a rather small increse to results (i belive 10 better out of a 200 or so possible results. Might even be 300 or 400. Don't know the code for sure.)
But Level should play a significant role as well if i remember rightly.
So if you field a Level 10 Adventurer (promoted unit, not unit-type,
don't know yet! (will soon, installing.
) if that has made it into main FFH2) it will be more significant and tangiable...Green adventurers (again adventurer-promoted units
) are really not all that hot for exploring lairs (especially those early scouts and warriors). In fact it might be worth to treasure them a bit until you get a few levels and upgrades. A Level 5 Axemen / Hunter is an unterly different thing when he / she is out exploring allready. But i agree with Marnok here. Heroes (not only Grigori ones) should get a hefty bonus (more like 20 or even 25) and Grigori might get along with an additional one (of 10? for all their units?). Another thing the explorable Lairs could "fix"
. Thanks again for that excellent part Marnok. ![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
well I agree that Grigori adventurers should get the "adventurer" promotion. and having them provide GPP when stationed in a city would give the Grigori the choice between a pacifist builder playstyle or an aggressive one. nice idea
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