If AI gets space flight before you in space game

[axehaxe]

If the AI gets space flight 4 turns before you and you are going for a space race victory, that means first of all, they will be able to get nukes, and second of all, it means they might build the space ship before you! Should I go to war at some point with this civ? Right now I am at peace but am wondering how this will affect the game. What I am trying to do is get them to nuke another civ first so every civ declares war on them.

This is a deity game...

Huge map archipelageo, using Dutch

8 civs left, modern age

I have a medium sized empire in communism
Japanese have a fairly large continent to themselves plus an island in democracy (but with creeping war weariness)

Ottomans have an empire fairly equal in size to mine

Japanese and Ottomans have a 2 tech lead against me with space flight and ecology

I am 4 turns away from miniturization

I am at war with France (very large with 400 + infantry, 55 tanks, 45 jet fighters!!, 40 bombers, 25 fighters, 91 TOW infantry, 35 battleships, 65 destroyers, 25 transports, 25 carriers) which is on my continent which I'm trying to wipe out so that when I'm done my production and research will be very powerful
as a result of hoover's and internet.

I do have uranium so I can build nukes.

The war is a pain because they have so many jet fighters and I cannot advance past 4 of their cities for like 20 turns! I have a $H!Tload of bombers which are getting shot down every turn like no other.

My dilemma is I don't know if I should eventually sign peace of try to finish out this ardurous war of attrition. Believe me, the war is definetly wearing me down as I drafted mech infantry and whipped tanks like crazy. But if I stopped the war I don't know if I'll be big enough to take on the Japanese especially when they get nukes! I need to win this war!

I know I don't want to nuke France right away because every civ will declare war on me so I'm trying to get Japan to nuke France first so that THEY find themselves in deep $H!T. The Ottomans are pretty dangerous too because they have the same technologies as Japan plus they are furious. Even though I have everyone allied against France and Aztecs (also very big continent), I am not sure what the best thing to do is. It looks like if I'm not careful, I might get distracted enough by this war that I get behind in tech and production and lose or I get nuked enough that I lose or something bad like that. Help!

 

[Bede]

Use those veteran spies you get from Communism (need to build the Intelligence Agency) and steal your way to the stars.

Unless you need to fight the French for resources end the war on favorable honorable terms or fight on until you get there and then end it.

Plant spies on all the tech leaders, turn research off, and go on a theft rampage, selling what you get to the laggards so you have cash to keep up the good work.

 

[axehaxe]

That actually does sound like a good idea because I do have like 30500 gold in cash and because I'm in communism, I didn't know what to do with it. Research is too slow so I think that is better. Yea and I think the war with France is going to take too long and most probably be a distraction.

How likely is it that I get nuked by the Japanese?

 

[Ansar]

Could you post a save?

 

[axehaxe]

I will try. Is there a file size limitation? It is like 900 Kb.

 

[Bede]

That actually does sound like a good idea because I do have like 30500 gold in cash and because I'm in communism, I didn't know what to do with it. Research is too slow so I think that is better. Yea and I think the war with France is going to take too long and most probably be a distraction.

How likely is it that I get nuked by the Japanese?

With 30K+ in the bank 8-10 turn research on just about anything you can name should be no problem, so I don't get it but stealing is cheaper anyway if you can stand the possibility of war. Just make sure you get Espionage and build the Intelligence Agency and the Secret Police HQ.

And the risk of getting nuked is nil, unless you drop one first.

 

[civverguy]

I will try. Is there a file size limitation? It is like 900 Kb.

There's no file size limitation if you use the upload button in the bottom of the page.

If all else fails, you should raze their capital.

 

[axehaxe]

Thanx civverguy, I uploaded it. It is on

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61021/BaraseungJagerro.SAV

 

[axehaxe]

Originally Posted by Bede
And the risk of getting nuked is nil, unless you drop one first.

Ohhh...I didn't know that! I've never been in a nuclear war before so I didn't have a clue as to how all that worked. That is good news then, I don't have to worry about Japan's nukes even if they somehow wound up in a war with me. Is there any point to building nukes at all then? If I won't use them, why build them?

Yes, I do have a lot of cash but when I put my research on full blast the best I can get is 37 turns/tech with all tax collectors changed to scientists. In that case I might as well go 1 scientist research at 50 turns/tech and use the money to steal up. Right now with the war on France going on I can't be building too many libraries or universities. Plus full blast science won't be happening anytime soon because I whipped and drafted A LOT.

 

[axehaxe]

Oh by the way guys trying the posted save;

The numbers of France's military contents I gave earlier was when the war began when they demanded rocketry - I gave it to them but on purpose got them to declare war the next turn so I can bomb out their roads as you will see a "line of no roads" marking out the front line. I've been giving them hell with my bombers but they are going to be one massive time consumer to battle out. There are 2 mech infantry armies inside their territory eating out their improvements. The game is left off right where I traded miniturization to the ottomans and Japan to get Eco and Space Flight. I checked to see if I will finish Internet and I will.

The biggest concern is Japan might finish the space ship.

 

[Bede]

You are hurtin' for certain. But science is not your problem, though I cannot for the life of me understand why you have such a lag in the research rate.

I have stolen and bargained my way to a space victory at Deity before, but, and this is a big one, your production capability just doesn't cut it. By this stage in a space race with the size of core cities you have you should have half a dozen cities capable of 100+ shields per turn. Without that kind of productivity you simply won't be able to build the parts in time.

One thing I noticed is that you have mines where you need water and water where you need mines.

Since you allied with everybody on the map against Joan you will need 13 turns before you can end the adventure. Those could be a painful thirteen turns unless you bring the armies back to the front line and go to work consolidating that border. You can bet Joan is hell bent for leather toward whatever tech gives her Modern Armor.

And you need to build the SPHQ somewhere, preferably someplace that can do it in less than 10 turns and which is not too far from the core cities. IIRC there is a pretty productive town down by Joan's border that could make good use of it.

 

[axehaxe]

100+ shields per turn?!?!? Dang... How in the world would you get that kind of production? It seems like the best a city can get is around 60 or 70 - I've done that but how do you even get like 80 or 90?

I dunno, it might have something to do with the spacing I use for my cities. Perhaps if there was more room for an individual city, it might be possible to see those kinds of production rates.

It is true that I may have put mines on grassland w/out bonus and irrigation on grassland w/ bonus if that's what you're talking about. Would I get more shields if I fixed that?

I doubt Joan is close to getting modern armor because she doesn't even have ecology yet. The Japanese and Ottomans got space flight and ecology long after I allied everyone on France and France was pretty behind in tech compared to me when the war began.

Did you notice how France doesn't have mech infantry yet? I find that good news because I can continue to wipe out their infantry stacks before they can go back home and come back one day as mech infantry!

I do think this is a hard game like you said and the likelihood of winning is questionable. I do have some ideas but I'm not sure. What about having prebuilds ready for each space component and stealing tech so they complete on the same turn?

A crazier idea is - once the war with France ends, I station 7 to 10 settlers inside the Japanese territory through ROP on their sweetest areas with about 4 or 5 mech infantry on each square. This is all in case I fail at stealing tech and Japan declares. I have about 7 to 10 nukes at each of these "stations". I also take every one of my workers (A LOT) and distribute them equally among these "stations". Lets say the worst case scenario happened and Japan declares. On that same turn, I settle those cities inside their empire with those contents. I join every worker in until I have like 8 or so size 12 cities with starvation, inside their empire. I then use the nukes on their largest metros. The next turn, they would proceed to nuke those false cities that I made inside their empire thinking they are important cities of mine that are very close by and easy to hit. The damage created would be on Japanese soil and they pretty much have messed up their own land with their own nukes on top of receiving damage from my nukes. Then they won't be able to produce anything as fast as I can and that may give me the time I need to do something even more effective!

 

[Bede]

"100+ shields per turn?!?!? Dang... How in the world would you get that kind of production? It seems like the best a city can get is around 60 or 70 - I've done that but how do you even get like 80 or 90? "

Perhaps by exaggerating a little bit.....But 60 to 90 is not that difficult to achieve and those are the kinds of numbers you are going to need for a Deity Space Ship win.


"It is true that I may have put mines on grassland w/out bonus and irrigation on grassland w/ bonus if that's what you're talking about. Would I get more shields if I fixed that?"

You will pick up substantially better production by properly mining and irrigating your fields. Mining bonus grass with rails will get you 33%, working mined hills and mountains with an accompanying irrigated plain grass field and for every irrigated and railed plains a mined and railed plain will put you way ahead of where you are now.

Now if what you really want to do is go to space on the strength of your nukes you need to use them while you are still allied with with everyone against the target nation. In that one case you will be entirely safe from retaliation.

 

[axehaxe]

Originally Posted by Bede
You will pick up substantially better production by properly mining and irrigating your fields. Mining bonus grass with rails will get you 33%, working mined hills and mountains with an accompanying irrigated plain grass field and for every irrigated and railed plains a mined and railed plain will put you way ahead of where you are now.

That is quite amazing. I had never thought of that. I use to think that a few mines and mostly irrigation would get me through any game.

I'll have to try that tonight

Originally Posted by Bede
Now if what you really want to do is go to space on the strength of your nukes you need to use them while you are still allied with with everyone against the target nation. In that one case you will be entirely safe from retaliation.

In that case, France is definetly not worth my nukes. I dunno why but I have a feeling that I can take a few more of their cities before the war ends. They are running out of troops because every turn they bring a large stack of infantry, TOW, and tanks near my border - I artillery them all to redline, and use the bombers to clear them.

Japan is definetly going to be much more dangerous in a war. Once I end the war on France, I will have to consider the high possibility of getting caught stealing tech. If they declare then, allying everyone against them is no problem. So as long as I can THEN nuke them to the stone age in 1 turn, I could perhaps prevent them from building the spaceship at all.

 

[axehaxe]

I'll post up what happens.

 

[axehaxe]

The way things are right now, the first thing that I want to do is somehow increase the production of my empire as a whole. My population has been decimated, the citizens are unhappy, and all my military units are at war. So to get things back in business here is what I do:

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[axehaxe]

This way I can support a higher population, crank those tanks out faster, and USE that money finally - the commie's way of cash rushing units.

I then set to work micromanaging every city as tightly as possible to get those extra foods and shields in the box. I also noticed that my build orders were quite a mess from the war so I fixed those. Offshore platforms were being ignored so I had several cities making those.

After bombing down their infantry stacks inside my territory, I ended the turn...

 

[axehaxe]

This is what their army looks like and what mine looks like. That pink weird "fan-blade" shaped empire is France and I am the orange Dutch...

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Any civ with some self respect would NOT try to bomb the way forward the next turn as already, those jet fighters were increasing in number every turn! So I made a little change of plans and placed my bombers away from the front. There were two cities towards the back of my empire that France had and were annoying my cities with single tanks every once in a while. So I decided to try to eliminate those guys first.

Meanwhile at the front there were tanks, TOW infantry, and lots of remaining infantry making their way forward. As usual - use artillery to red line, use 5/5 tanks to clear 2 at a time, use conscript mech infantry to train themselves on redline remaining infantry - works every time and then I ended the turn...

 

[axehaxe]

Luckily, nothing special happens - new turn...

I had about 30 or 40 bombers rebased ready to attack, I took a deep breath trying not to worry about jet fighters being there...

Bomber #1 elite - gets shot down immediately without leaving a scratch on the jet fighter

Bomber #2 elite - gets shot down but wounding the jet fighter to 2 hp
Bomber #3, 4, 5, and 6 redline most of the jet fighters inside the city

Bomber #7 gets shot down by a fresh jet fighter

#8 kills a jet fighter
#9 gets shot down

The rest never got shot down and killed, all the jet fighters and their 4 or 5 infantry guarding the city.

Then...

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A cavalry walks into their undefended village

I artilleried, tanked, and mech infantried their new stacks at the front and ended the turn...

 

[axehaxe]

The next turn was pretty much a repeat of that turn all except luckily, I didn't lose anymore bombers! Their stacks at the front were also getting weaker and weaker but the best news was:

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The two cities in the back are mine now.