Ignored civilization...

[klazlo]

Originally posted by Cheops
Personally, I think the Civ staff has tried to make the game as diversified as possible while keeping the political-religious polemics out of it, and at least for now I think that was a good idea.

Yes, probably this was the main reason. Including the Jews in any form would have been a very slippery and sensitive move with much more controversy then benefit.
The pick of the civs was depending on todays's social and cultural factors: that's why they could not leave the US out, that's why they had to insert female leaders (though I think it would me much wiser to have a male AND a female leader to EVERY civ), that's why they had to find African and Latin-American civilizations - in other words although they wanted to entertain first, they also wanted to avoid any non-pc labels.
There was an article at the Civfanatics pages about the cultural aspects of the game and it asked why all the modern age wonders are Western ones and why do all cities look like Western ones by the age of industrialization?
The programming represents today's Western cultural dominance (in terms of quantity), the history of civilizations seen and taught by the West and the current values of a Western society.
Like it or not - that's the case.

And there is absolutely no doubt that Canadian beers are much better then the US ones!

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Yes Cheops its all good, you are right about alot of what you say and you are right that this thread is of questionable worth.

Lt. - I just took over a class from a professor who is ill and had to complete an assignment that professor assigned that they tell and explain an ethnic joke... boy was I stammering and nervous as hell as I am very much a product of the "PC" era...

 

[ogrejedi]

This thread carried on far longer than I thought it would.

First, there's no reason to call people who question the worth of the Jews as a civilization "anti-Semites". No one thus far has attacked the Jews in a racial way (someone else I brought this up to thought the Jews should have "super Banks", but that wasn't here). I'd like to stress a few points.

The Jews were, for a long time, the economic drivers of European civilization. This is true, but the argument of many is that as a civilization, they existed for only about 700-1000 years, during which they won no major wars. Of course, they were dominant in their region, and they stood up to the Romans rather well, being granted more autonomy than most Roman provinces.

The closest thing bridging on anti-Semitism was Cheop's last paragraph. Mainly, this only offended me because of the use of the word "Yahweh". No matter what your history book tells you, the Jewish G-d is not named "Yahweh". This is a "mispronunciation" of the acronym yud-yud, which stands for "I am that I am". Supposedly, when Moses asked G-d what his name was, this was what he stated. THE ACRONYM IS _NEVER_ PRONOUNCED. It is read as "adonai", meaning "Lord", or "hashem", meaning "the Name". "Jehova" is another common mispronunciation of "the Name".

Finally, as to the existence of David and Solomon, reference to a "King David" has been found by archeologists in (I believe) Egypt. It has been proven that there was a David (and thus probably Solomon and Saul), but this obviously does not prove the existence of God. The grave of the brother of Jesus was also found--many biblical references have been found archeologically, none of them necessarily proving everything in the Bible correct.

 

[sabreX]

Well sounds like I found a real hot thread here! I'm not going to touch the Isrealites as a civ debate, I just wanted to express my own support for having Canada added as a civ. We could be industrious and ... donno pacifist, and Mounties as a UU that replaces cavalry, mabey with an extra movment or defensive point. I think Canada is just as valid as the US as a civ because what we lack in shear power we make up for in always getting the job done. Least we forget Juno beach ??!! the toughest beach landing of D-Day and it was won by canadians. How about keeping the Atlantic sea lanes open during the first 3 years of WWII? Oh did I forget to mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was writen by a Canadian... So you can see we have the right units and we have our own wonders.

So lets see those Canadian Mods online soon

 

[cymru_man]

Originally posted by ogrejedi
No matter what your history book tells you, the Jewish G-d is not named "Yahweh". This is a "mispronunciation" of the acronym yud-yud, which stands for "I am that I am". Supposedly, when Moses asked G-d what his name was, this was what he stated. THE ACRONYM IS _NEVER_ PRONOUNCED. It is read as "adonai", meaning "Lord", or "hashem", meaning "the Name". "Jehova" is another common mispronunciation of "the Name".

True
Also ogrejedi I have to say I think you have been very brave what you have said in this thread. I'd be too scared of all these scary people to go into that kind of depth.

Originally posted by sabreX
Mounties as a UU that replaces cavalry, mabey with an extra movment or defensive point.

Don't want to stop you when you've got going, just that a 6/4/3 Mountie would be the same as a Russian cossack so you'd better go with the extra movement. (A 4 move cavalry would be very scary though)

 

[ogrejedi]

Thanks. Anyway, I've come to believe that modding is the best way of accomplishing things such as this, and that I was a bit arrogant to suggest the Jews as a civ. It does annoy me when they are not part of the Mediterranean MOD (apologies to whoever made it), when the Egyptians, the Persians, and the Phoenicians are. Unfortunately, the Jews are too often seen as a religion by themselves and others, and never acknowledged as a civilization.

As to the Solomon/David/Saul thing, I discussed this today with an anthropology expert (hobbyist). Archeologists have found external references to Solomon from sources such as the Egyptians. As far as I know, David and Saul were not referenced, and thus could be legendary (many kings have claimed legendary ancestry), but Solomon was well-known throughout the Middle East.

I DO have a MOD, by the way, with the Jews (though it is not complete or releasable), which also adds the Scotts (Macbeth as king... sorry ). Maybe I should add the Canadians. Jews have Solomon as King and Prophet as UU with the suggested statistics, 0(1).0.1 with Radar and Bombard. The UU for the Scotts is the Guardsman, though I'm thinking of changing it to Engineer. I have a great appreciation for the Scottish, who have managed to hold on to their land even with the crazy imperialist British directly south of them.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

ogrejedi, (I only just got it with your name, ogre jedi, right?), good points all.

I want to add- the Hebrews under the Maccabees but before Empire were one of the only groups the ROmans had a mutual protection pact and trade alliance with. After Empire, they were only group assimilated by Rome who were not required to kowtow to Rome's gods.

I run into the G-d thing alot teaching. It seems like one of those things I would personally revel in rebelling against if I were Jewish by adding the O (just like I'd enjoy a nice big glass of wine if I were Muslim).

 

[Raijer]

As most of comments I would have made were made by others first, I'll just say this: my compliments to ogrejedi for starting this facinating thread, and to most of the responders. To be honest I was shocked at the amount of civility and even-headedness that was evident in so potentially volitile a thread such as this. The fact that this topic can be discussed with the minimum amount of temper-flairing-falme-inducing hoohaw runs counter to my usual cynical nature. All I can say is good job folks!

 

[lateralis]

hi all, I got in a VERY long discussion about this over at apolyton, although it got rather heated and was mosly discussed before everyone knew what civs would be in PTW. I'd just like to add my 2 cents.

did they language and culture is spread all over the world?

although this has been pointed out by others. Yes, actually. ALL of western religion comes from judaism, and therefore ALL of the european middle ages (from the point of view of christianity, crusades, catholicism, holy roman empire, protestantism, etc. etc.) However, this is NOT why I would like to see them as a civ.

the main reason (and unfortuantely, this is a "pie in the sky" desire that won't show up till civ IV or V) is the differences in gameply that a civilzation like the "judeans" (as I would call the civ) could open up.

1. One suggestion was to have a "diaspora" unit as the UU for the judeans. The jews have mainly survived due to their ability to live as jews within other countries and cultures. although the implementation of a unit that takes on the nationality of the host civilization would be tough, and it would probably be end up being more of a spy than simply a citizen. obviously there are issues.

2. this could also bring, if not as a full featured civ, the concept of religion into the game in a new way. for instance, I as an atheist, actually become LESS happy the more religious structures (ie temples cathedrals) there are around me. maybe there could be different segments of the population, including, but not limited too, different religious factions, different political ideologies (ie a political party system dependent on government type with different factions who must be appeased) anyone who likes could expand this list.

3. I also have suggested in This Thread a new trait system might be a good idea (with or without the judeans). take a look if you like. the idea is that this system would open the door to many new DIFFERENTLY PLAYABLE civs. ie someone said that different civs are merely a graphical wrapper to mathematical equations, a newer trait system could add more subtle shading to play, make civ selection even more important and make even more combinations so as to not have more than one civ with the same traits and only a different UU.

4. I would personally like to see the judeans as a full-fledged civ as the world would hardly be what it is today without them. the jewish calendar is currently in it's 6th millennium (5765 or so). It is (as far as i know) the oldest calendar still in ACTIVE use today. Some asian calendars are in their 5th millennium, but that's still not as old. Since civ3 already has a built in "restarting civs" feature, it seems only natural for a judean (or israelite) civ which was active, then "restarted" in the middle east. (a stretch, I know, but go with it )

also (and I'm sure I will be given a laundry list of historical references to shut this down) "arab" encompasses a number of nationalities (a number of which are currently or have been at odds with one another throughout the years) and seems to me to be more of an ethnic group than civilzation. And yes, islamic/muslim and arab are 2 different things, i understand this. I'm not championing the idea that judean has more or less a right than arab to be included, (that is what the discussion at apolyton mostly revolved around) merely that to dismiss judean as simply a religion is over-simplification. (one of the main reasons I use Judean and not Israeli or hebrew or jewish.) Given this, I see more than enough reason to include a judean civ, over and above the protests voiced thus far.

lateralis

 

[Raijer]

the main reason (and unfortuantely, this is a "pie in the sky" desire that won't show up till civ IV or V) is the differences in gameply that a civilzation like the "judeans" (as I would call the civ) could open up.

1. One suggestion was to have a "diaspora" unit as the UU for the judeans. The jews have mainly survived due to their ability to live as jews within other countries and cultures. although the implementation of a unit that takes on the nationality of the host civilization would be tough, and it would probably be end up being more of a spy than simply a citizen. obviously there are issues.

Nominated: Understatement of the Year. Seriously lateralis, when I actually tried to think of the implications of a "Diaspora UU", a serious shudder of dread shot down my back. The trouble starts from the fact that the "diaspora" would by necessity, be a military unit - and one assumingly working toward winning the game (ie world domination). These UUs would be living among other Civs (are YOU going to let someone else's UU live in your city?). The consequences of that, as one could well imagine, may turn out to be frighteningly accurate historical-wise.

Interesting post lateralis. Thanks

btw, tool rules, as you well know

 

[lateralis]

you're right, quite an understatement. I didn't really go deep into it because it would require, uh a whole new game. yeah, well. I guy can dream can't he?

lateralis

 

[EdwardTking]

I suspect that it is because of two reasons:

(a) Firaxis don't want their games to get involved in ongoing
or in recent Middle East or other i.e. post WW2 political disputes, messes, wars or whatever etc.

(b) Many Islamic states do not recognise Israel and might
seek to impound or ban the game if Israel was a tribe.

Personally I'd like to see Jews and the Arabs as tribes.

 

[sabreX]

Sorry everybody about my three posts, the site was reacting real sluggish yesterday and I had unintentionaly submitted my post three times.

lateralis has a good idea about adding religion.

I always really liked the system they used for Alpha Centari where you could customize your religious and goverment systems. Some similar type of system for civ would be great!!

Just imagine a fundamentalist Democracy, or Catholic Communisim .... the possibilities are endless

hmmm mabey civ IV

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

I disagree that the jews or hebrews should be religious and commercial. This seems to fit too well with the usual stereotyping. Contray to belief jews are not less corrupt than other civilisations. Just look at israeli politics today. (Why the French are commercial beats me) . I think the jews should be expansionist and scientific. Expansionist beacuse of the diaspora and the current settlement policy and scientific because this is perhaps the ethnic grouping which have recieved most Nobel prices. Think of Einstein for example.
The militaristic trait is perhaps another viable trait to think of. Particularly if one reads the Old Testament or think of the current situation. (how many modern Israeli prime ministers have been in combat? most I would think)I would hesitate since the militaristic trait also includes military inventiveness in how to conduct wars in new ways. The Israeli victories in modern times are after all based on German military doctrine.
So expansionist/ scientific it is. Comments please.

 

[whstaff]

lesses the hebrews were conquered by the following groups/countries, egyptians, assyrians, persians, babylonians, greeks and romans, ottomans (? open to debate) I've probably left one out. The hebrews had true autonomy for only very short stretches, most of the time they fell into the following categories, client state, colony, protectorate. Not much time being independant. I'm not denying that the hebrews were important culturally. BTW, I'm jewish.

 

[Zcylen]

they've never been a civilization but a wandering tribe
just like gypsies
were they the same?

 

[ogrejedi]

Well, you can't say that the Jews were _never_ a civilization, as they were for at least a short time. I don't think that being Commercial and Religious makes them not corrupt. Anyway, it seems that Jews can fit under Expansionist, Commercial, Religious, Militaristic, Scientific, AND Industrious (hasn't been brought up yet, but look at how they've transformed Israel's terrain). Religious is a very important trait. It ultimately boils down to whether or not the Jews should be looked at as the actual nation they once were and now once again are, or the cultural force they've always been. As a nation, Religious and Militaristic or Religious and Commercial would be the best bet. As a culture, Expansionist and Scientific would probably be the best. It brings up many, many questions, and it may be that the Jews are not included because of the questions it raises as to how they are defined. Anyway, what Arab country plays Civ3?

I found it weird when I noticed that Christians don't write "G-d", by the way. It was just something I'd always learned. Writing the entire word would make a piece of paper sacred, and thus you couldn't throw it away--it would have to be buried. Of course, as far as I know, it doesn't apply to typing online, so it's sort of a force of habit.

 

[lateralis]

Originally posted by ogrejedi
I found it weird when I noticed that Christians don't write "G-d", by the way. It was just something I'd always learned. Writing the entire word would make a piece of paper sacred, and thus you couldn't throw it away--it would have to be buried. Of course, as far as I know, it doesn't apply to typing online, so it's sort of a force of habit.

about this: it's also interesting to note that on TV (in america at least) when a character in a movie says "god damn it" the bleep out the god and not the damn. I always found that intereseting. Like god is a bad word!!

(well... a lot of bad stuff has been done in god's name )

lateralis

 

[Silverflame]

Originally posted by lateralis


about this: it's also interesting to note that on TV (in america at least) when a character in a movie says "god damn it" the bleep out the god and not the damn. I always found that intereseting. Like god is a bad word!!

(well... a lot of bad stuff has been done in god's name )

lateralis

Really? I never noticed things like this before about the word "god". Maybe I live in a community full of aethiests or something.

 

[lateralis]

watch a movie on network TV that needs to be edited, something that was R rated in the theaters. You'll catch it eventually. Really strange.