Ignored civilization...

[RobOz]

And what about the mighty Canadians??? Shall we forget them too and their rich history? Who doesn't want a Mountie UU?

P.S. Just teasing you Canucks. You got great beer.

 

[JMac]

Originally posted by RobOz
And what about the mighty Canadians??? Shall we forget them too and their rich history? Who doesn't want a Mountie UU?

P.S. Just teasing you Canucks. You got great beer.

yes we do I AM CANADIAN

lol and my dad is a cop up here

 

[HotDog Fish]

The Americans are in there because they're the first nation to be able to destroy every single man woman and child several times over with Nuclear Weapons and monopolise the world economy (after WWII). I admit the Jews did some very interesting stuff but it's certainly not at the top of my list for Civilizations that didn't make CivIII or PTW.

 

[TETurkhan]

My mod is on the PTW disk and it has the Jews in it - Israelites. I actually am playing a game right now as the Israelites - most fun I have ever had playing Civ.

Click the link at the bottom of my post to see details (got to the last page of the thread)... there you will see the unique unit they have etc...

Additional Civs above and beyond what comes with PTW that you can see on my mod are:

1- Israelites
2- Polish
3- Hungarians
4- Songhai (around present day Mali)
5- Abyssinians
6- Indonesians
7- Khmer (Cambodians)
8- Incas

I dropped the Babylonians and the Americans. Babylonians because I felt that area was too congested anyways... and the Americans because Colonization and exploration of the New World play a large factor in my mod... It didn't seem righ they are in the New World at the Dawn of time...

I will however be making a mod called "American Destiny" which starts when America came into existence - you will have to fight the English, Civil War etc...

 

[gugalpm]

The Jews can be a religious or cultural group, I sure don't know it exactly. But that they aren't and will never be a civilization, this is sure...

 

[TETurkhan]

they are a civilization and have made an impact on man's history...
If you are referring to the game, as I said I included them so there you are - its not that hard to include whatever Civ you like, the editor allows this so nothign here to be concerned about...

 

[gugalpm]

what impact?
did they conquered the whole known world? did they language and culture is spread all over the world? Did they ever fought in a world war or big battle in history? No. So please don't begin this kind of discussion. allright?

 

[TETurkhan]

1- You do not have the right or authority to come in here demanding people not state their opinions just because you do not agree with it.

2- A Civilization does not need to be engaged in battles and wars to be legitimate. If this is your only criteria then you are narrow minded.

3- Jewish faith is one that Christianity and Islam sprung from. All three religions share much in common but it was the Judaism that came first. Furthermore a people called the Khazars were for centuries the most powerful kingdom around the Caspian and Black Sea area. They held back the waves of Muslim armies, in essence protecting Eastern Europe.

Each person is entitled to their own beliefs. We are just talking about a game and peoples wish to play certain Civs. To that end everyone has a right to want to see any Civ in the game and thanks to the editor this is possible.

If you ask me though, the one Civ that I am surprised got left out, the GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH, home of the KOKANEE BEER - CANADA!!!! without us the American economy would collapse, our lumber is what heats your country, we always get taken for granted - I tell you.. such an injustice....

ALL I GOT TO SAY IS I AM CANADIAN!!!!!! AND I LOVE MY BEER!!!

 

[Seraph]

2- A Civilization does not need to be engaged in battles and wars to be legitimate. If this is your only criteria then you are narrow minded.

Actually, if you look at all the civs chosed for the games, you'll notice that they all share a single thing, they all achieved some state of "empire" in their history. They each became powerful, and for some period of time could have run rampent in their neck of the woods.

If being judged as an "empire" then the Isreal of history is on the same level as the Hittites, or the Minoans.

 

[Silverflame]

Ill agree with Seraph. If you include Isreal, then you might as well include the Hittites and everyone else around that level. I think 24 nations are enough already.

But two nations I would like to see are Canada and Inca. I am always puzzled why the Incans have always been ignored. They were ignored in aoe...

 

[TETurkhan]

Celts had no empire really, furthermore the Jewish Khazars had a powerful kingdom for centuries, just as powerful if not more than the Carthaginians, Babylonians or Vikings were...

Its hard to say one Civ should be in and another one out... I think all Civs have a right to be in the game... Some may have had large empires, others might have made more cultural contributions and IMO the ladder is where the Jews were most impacting...

Again this is not such a huge deal since we have the ability to edit what we want shaping the game to our liking...

 

[dog]

Originally posted by cracker
I would personally rather see the Borg, the Klingons, the Ferengi, and the Romulons included in the game long before we have another one of the crying fits about the jews, the gypsies, or the whatevers not being included.

Hmmm...I have no idea what you're talking about. Apparently you're some sort of right wing Trekkie. Btw, I'm not trying to suggest that being a Trekkie and being a right wing zealot are in any way inherently in oppostion. I wouldn't know, as I don't traffic in such circles. Just seems weird.

Originally posted by cracker

There are ump tee ump bizillion minor/moderate religious, cultural, and racial groups in the history of this planet as well as the other 37 humanoid inhabited planets in our Galaxy.

Gosh, I'd be very reluctant to call the Jewish religion/culture/race minor or even moderate in influence in the development of culture (human) on this planet. W/o Judaism would there be Christianity or Islam?? Of course, I can't speak regarding the relative importance of Judaism as a religion/culture when considering the development of the other inhabited planets of our galaxy since I am not privvy to such sensitive information e.g. that there actually are other inhabited planets in our galaxy.

Originally posted by cracker

Are we so narrow minded and planar in thought we cannot see that these "civs" in the game are merely graphics wrappers that provide a skin to cover a set of mathematical positions that just make this an interesting game to play.

Yup. By design. If we couldn't "suspend belief" and "immerse" ourselves in the game, then the product wouldn't sell. I doubt so much effort would've been put into the graphics and text if this were not the case.

Originally posted by cracker

It wouldn't matter if the next expansion pack included all the gangs from the movie "Warriors" it would still add some interiesting dimension to the game if these gangs had different attributes and different special unit abilities.

Decent movie but why the hell didja bring that up?? Play with the editor. That's what modding's about.

Originally posted by cracker
Any other whining about excluded civs or "my ancestors are unfairly excluded" or "this guy/gal is the wrong shade of brown or pink just reflects a reduced ability to apply your imagination into the game to let you enjoy the limited functions that have been designed into the game.

I know I'm wrong about this...I'm sure I am...cuz that just kind of reads like you're saying that anyone who has issue with the status quo as regarding to excluded ancestors (race/culture) and possibly inappropriate representation of race (via skin tone) demonstrate "a reduced ability to apply your imagination." Wow. Whew, be careful, here in Florida, where I live, we might mistake your intentions and wrongfully be accusing you of being a...well...a...hmmmm...cracker.

Originally posted by cracker

Play on. When you have won a game as each of the 16+8 existing civs on each of the 5 map sizes, on at least 4 different landmass settings, from all six of the major terrain type positions, and by each of the 6 major victory conditions then we can say "OK,

"I NEED A LIFE!

Originally posted by cracker
I have run out of people to kill or be killed by, bring on the Jews."

(note: in the previous post you could substitute any tribe, group, team, or club for Jews and the message would still be the same. Learn to play the game.)

 

[cymru_man]

The Hebrews were included in CTP2, as were 101 other more obscure civs, (including the Canadians and the Polish). The major difference between that game and civ3 is you need to have a leaderhead, individual behaviour, a UU, and civ attributes, whereas in CTP2 all the civs were pretty much the same only with a different city list.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Oh the controversy!

What a wierd thread, a cross between request for a mod, antiSemitic ranting, historical debate - this could go in a number of forums.

Original premise: why they not put the Hebrews in Civ yet?
Response: sorry, they havent (though they are in Teturkahns mod), same with the Incas, Ethiopians, Polynesians, Kwakiutl, Dutch, Portuguese... you get the picture.

Additional Point: some people are saying there are reasons other than time and space and popularity to not put them in.
Response: you are on dangerous ground. There is no need to bash the Hebrews in a thread questioning their inclusion in the game. I sure didn't expect to see the Arabs and Ottomans in there, but there they are. Give Firaxis enough time and enough of your money and they will surely include the authors of the Bible and genetic line of Einstein and economic drivers of the Middle Ages.

Additional Point: combination; some people are questioning America's inclusion as a civ, others clamouring for Canada...
Response: Ever wonder why Japan was in the last World Cup? America hosts civ, made civ, and by the way has won real life Civ. Canada can't be a civ until they include more than one restaurant in the Toronto airport.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Sultan: Please be very carefull using the word antiSemit... around here. I for exapmle simply think the Jews to be too smal and militarily unimportant group to qualify them for Civ3, especially as there is no special other achievement that might make up for the missing empire. A Semitic civ would be OK for me, btw. But this is often (intentionally mis-)taken for antisemitism - and I decidedly am NOT anti-Jews or anti-Semits or anything like that.

Not meant to critize you, just a reminder that this word has a 'special' ring....

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I agree completely Lt. The word "antiSemite" is fired off way too easily. What I said was that some of these posts get dangerously close, go back and look at some of these posts and you might agree. Just because Israel ticks a person off personally doesn't justify any other kind of comment.

Anyway I am not accusing anyone, just warning folks to avoid the chance of such accusation. Hope this helps.

 

[Cheops]

Originally posted by ogrejedi
The Jews were a nation for quite a long time... some accounts estimate their departure from Egypt at around 1300 B.C. They were conquered by Babylonia in about 586 B.C., but returned under the Persians, and retained some form of autonomous rule until about 70 A.D. During the time of David, their territory extended from the borders of Egypt to the Euphrades river, and Israel was one of the strongest powers in the Middle East during the reigns of David and Solomon. It seems as if this civilization is at least more important than the Zulu.

The problem with this, Ogrejedi, is that there is simply no evidence supporting the actual existence of legendary figures such as King David and Solomon, let alone all the things they are alleged to have done; at least not in the grand sense that these characters are portrayed in the Hebrew Bible. We could equally ask why the existence of Britain as a state today, and it's history as a powerful force since the middle ages, should not demonstrate the historical reality of King Arthur, Merlin and other figures of Arthurian legend.

Characters such as David and Solomon in the Hebrew Bible, while possibly based in small part on historical persons, are largely adaptions into Hebrew theology from older Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Canaanite and other Near Eastern legend (e.g., Noah, Moses, Job, Samson, etc.), and also later reshaping of the SAME TALES for later developing Hebrew characters from earlier ones. Such copying and redacting of the classic hero tale was a common practice of the times (as it is today), so it should hardly seem remarkable that a struggling and largely weak people would be any different than any other people of the times in adapting such heroic epics as their own.

We simply do not have the corroborating archaeological and contemporary textual evidence for the existence of, let alone the dominating presense of, a nation called Israel in the likes that we have for other ancient Near Eastern powers like Babylon, Persia, Egypt, et al.

On the other hand, this is just a game, so why NOT include them? I'll give you that much. But then you'd have the fundamentalists crying blasphemy at the very "possibility" that the Hebrew civ, under direction of the one-and-only-true-god-of-the-universe, Yahweh, could ever fall to the evil Egyptians, Babylonians, or Romans.

Regards,

Cheops

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I agree with much of what you assert Cheops, Hebrew civilization was never very massive or mighty and indeed there is no real evidence of alot of the traditions.

But then we get to the last paragraph. Why include this? Sort of a "cheap shot" at the Israeli supremacists. As I said, they included the Arabs without regarding the potential for blasphemy - Islamic culture disallows the exacting replicas of humans such as the units in Civ (the reason chess pieces are so abstract, by the way).

 

[Cheops]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I agree with much of what you assert Cheops, Hebrew civilization was never very massive or mighty and indeed there is no real evidence of alot of the traditions.

But then we get to the last paragraph. Why include this? Sort of a "cheap shot" at the Israeli supremacists. As I said, they included the Arabs without regarding the potential for blasphemy - Islamic culture disallows the exacting replicas of humans such as the units in Civ (the reason chess pieces are so abstract, by the way).

Hi Sultan!

Your point is well taken.

But my last paragraph was not meant as a "cheap shot" so much as demonstrating a point about the level of religious (in)sensitivity in society today--a point that the powers that be at Firaxis no doubt took into consideration in keeping the Hebrews out of it.

A slight difference with the inclusion of Arabs is that being Arabic and being Islamic are mutually exclusive, just as "American" is not synonymous with "Christian" (much as Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft would like that to be). But when one says "Hebrew" or "Israelite," and then to have said Civ's king as David or Solomon as it's leader is an entirely different matter all together. The same would be the case were the Arabs' leader have been made Muhammad! Indeed, one might extend the discussion to include the presence of Gandhi as a Civ leader.

One would certainly hope that no one would be so thin-skinned as to feel offended by having THEIR sacred heroes and religious hopes personified in anything less than they may perceive them themselves, but the fact is there always are, and none moreso than here in America.

This is always a potentially volatile topic that really should have no place in the Civ forums, IMO. Personally, I think the Civ staff has tried to make the game as diversified as possible while keeping the political-religious polemics out of it, and at least for now I think that was a good idea.

Regards,

Cheops

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Sultan: it seems you have the same twitchy antennas as I have......