I'm in the habit of building Stonehenge EVERY game

[Wodan]

Every game I've got Ethopia telling me that they will continue to spread the truth to my unwashed masses.

There are exceptions, and Haile tends to push the boundaries, I agree there. He always seems to be a missionary pimp. My favorite trick against him and similar ilk is simply to pay some AI who's bordering him to go to war. Missionaries don't do too well when they don't have a clear path to do their business.

Also, Theology isn't much of a detour. You're going to education anyway, aren't you?

Any detour is an opportunity cost. You're going to Civil Service, Metal Casting, or Currency anyway, aren't you? So, basically this is saying to delay those other techs in order to get a religion that, according to what I'm hearing, isn't all that important at all in the first place. Which is it?

Also, lol at your "baseline" building being the best one there is. That's not a baseline. If you don't get the first religion, there's a chance you don't get Pagodas. Then what are you stuck with?

What, are you saying Pagodas are better than, say, Mosques? Or Cathedrals? To each its place... each has its strengths.

 

[Wodan]

If your capitol is still at 7-8 pop (and not in its teens) by the time theology comes around, you're obviously doing something wrong.

You missed the part that said "typical city" apparently. Some cities, which would include your cap, will be better. Some will be worse. The average would be "typical."

I wonder what most players would want to tech instead? civil service (but the AI loves that line and you basically have a 0.1% chance to get Chichen on deity anyway)???

No offense but... really? Your reason to get Civil Service on Deity is for Chichen? Especially since by self admission you don't usually prioritize civil service. If Chichen is that earth shattering, this should be a beeline tech.

If I don't do Stonehenge then I'd build ONE shrine in my cap, that's it. If I'm lucky I'll get my pantheon, hopefully a faith based one (and starts where you cannot get faith-based pantheons generally I give up on religion altogether on deity; unless I have something outrageous like 8 citrus+wheat for sun god or 8 seafood tiles for god of the sea, then I beeline for Hagia like crazy)

I'd suggest to get out of that corner you've painted yourself in. There are a lot of great strats you could be enjoying.

 

[Wodan]

Stonehenge does not guarantee founding a religion. (It does guarantee a pantheon, and is often be enough on its own to found a religion, but it’s still a gamble.)

Yes, but the odds are extremely high, and even if you don't, it's because you didn't do any shrines (despite seeing religions get founded which means you have religion civs in the game, and you could do some shrines when that happens). And, more importantly, it's not like the faith points would go to waste. The faith you would have expended on that GP which is spent to found a religion will be spent on religious buildings for a religion that spreads to your civ and spreading same religion. So, it's far from a "gamble." It's more like "sorry you didn't get to pick your prize, here's a big cash consolation prize" when you might have wanted the cash money in the first place!

The combination of one (or two) religious CS allies, ruins, and pantheon choice are more likely to let you found a religion than Stonehenge on its own.

I don't know that i've ever had one CS ally before all the religions were founded, let alone two, let alone in time to give me faith points to impact the religion race. Ruins, yes, that helps, but that truly is a gamble, and a low odds one, unless you have your finger on the reload hotkey.

 

[Sharples]

To me, it depends on who I play as, if it's Byzantines or Maya I will definitely consider it.

But for anyone else who doesn't have faith in its buildings or UA, ect. I tend to ignore, unless I'm going very wide. Plus, on higher difficulties such as Emperor, Immortal or Deity it becomes really hard to get, and it wastes a lot of time. Especially when you could be producing settlers or a worker or libraries.

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

Every game I grab Stonehenge and I never regret it. My civ becomes a religious powerhouse very early on and that early great engineer is quite useful. Sometimes I'll save him just for The Forbidden Palace.

 

[El Caballerion]

I like Stonehenge... a lot. I build it, even on diety. It makes reaping the reward of getting the final religion THAT much more amazing.

 

[kkapalk]

I used to beeline for GL but after reading this thread I have now become hooked on Stonehenge! And for exactly the reasons that Byzantine Bomb gives. It makes it so much easier to combat the AI when their religion is strong.

 

[Chum]

Any detour is an opportunity cost. You're going to Civil Service, Metal Casting, or Currency anyway, aren't you? So, basically this is saying to delay those other techs in order to get a religion that, according to what I'm hearing, isn't all that important at all in the first place. Which is it?

No, no, and no. Civil Service is generally the last tech I get before Education, and it's never been a problem. Pikes are great..when they're pikes. The Lancer is so terrible that I generally don't go heavy pikes in any game because I don't want a bunch of Lancers hanging out being stupid. Chichen Itza is terrible unless you're one of a couple civs. Metal Casting isn't that important to me because I tend to prioritize the NC over expansion, so early workshops mean nothing to me. Currency is only important if I'm doing a desert start, and then it's THE priority, so religion takes a back seat to that (which shouldn't be an issue if you can get desert folklore anyway, which is manageable with a Shrine instead of Stonehenge).

The real point of this thread is that there's many ways to accomplish things. Stonehenge is one path, but there's literally a dozen other ways to accomplish what you want on a given map. That's kinda the nice thing about Civ, cookie cutter doesn't work every time, and it shouldn't.

What, are you saying Pagodas are better than, say, Mosques? Or Cathedrals? To each its place... each has its strengths.

Uh, yes, they're better than both. That's pretty clear.

 

[Browd]

Clear only if 1 extra local happiness is your priority. Cathedrals provide an extra art/artifact slot, which may be key in a culture game, while Mosques provide more faith, which may enable more Great Person purchases post-Industrial.

As you say, cookie cutter doesn't work every time.

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

Re: OP

I find that I need one of the following criteria to be met to found a religion, or 2 of the following criteria to be met if I want good belief picks with that religion:

1.) have 2nd city settled near a religious mountain.
2.) have a desert or tundra start-first tech is pottery, immediately change production to shrine and manually adjust citizens to maximize production (halting growth for 5-6 turns) while shrine is being built.
3.)have no less than 3 stone/marble or gems/pearls within the first 2 cities, or no less than 6 gold/silver or wine/incense within the first 2 cities.
4.)be the Celts, Ethiopians, or Mayans. Also Spain + religious mountain = you're golden, and not that unlikely since about a third of all NWs are religious mountains.
5.) start near just one religious CS and be lucky enough to snag one feasible quest.
6.) build Stonehenge.

So SH is just one of six methods of ensuring a religion. IMO, it's also the worst option as it's the choice that ties up your production for the longest by far, slowing expansion the most and creating the most headaches from barbs and aggressive neighbors.

 

[beetle]

To me, it depends on who I play as, if it's Byzantines or Maya I will definitely consider it. But for anyone else who doesn't have faith in its buildings or UA, etc. I tend to ignore, unless I'm going very wide. Plus, on higher difficulties such as Emperor, Immortal or Deity it becomes really hard to get, and it wastes a lot of time. Especially when you could be producing settlers or a worker or libraries.

I definitely would not skip for Byzantines, but for just about every other Civ it’s 50/50 with me, it depends how things are going, because I really want to found, but don’t mind being late. But you really only have to out-perform one AI, so it’s not hard. And my experience is that it’s pretty easy to get on Immortal or Deity.

I find that I need one of the following criteria to be met to found a religion...

That’s a good list! And I realize that I misspoke when I wrote about two religious CSallies. (Which would be nice, but as Wodan correctly points out, is quite unlikely.) What I really meant was being the first to find two religious CS (since that doubles the points they give you). Having just one religious CS ally (which, as you point out, can happen early with a lucky barb quest is just about enough on its own.

 

[Wodan]

No, no, and no. Civil Service is generally the last tech I get before Education, and it's never been a problem.

I didn't say it was a problem, I said it'd be an opportunity cost to adjust tech research order.

Pikes are great..when they're pikes. The Lancer is so terrible that I generally don't go heavy pikes in any game because I don't want a bunch of Lancers hanging out being stupid.

Without getting into that debate , I still think there's an extremely simplistic view going on. First it was chichen itza, now pikes. There are other benefits to CS. Frankly, I consider the food bonus to be the biggest benefit, and the other benefits aren't inconsequential either (depending on strat).

My main point is to say that different strategies have their pros/cons. What doesn't fit in one strategy could be huge in another. And, there are thousands of interactions in Civ (synergy between features). Things such as delaying a tech often impact something else which impacts a third thing.

Metal Casting isn't that important to me because I tend to prioritize the NC over expansion, so early workshops mean nothing to me.

I guess we get down to the bottom of it... playing one playstyle/strategy pretty much every game, and any change is negative by definition.

Personally I enjoy variety and in finding out how to get the most benefit out of different features. Sometimes I set up and play a whole game precisely to try out and see how I can use and abuse some feature that I have found lackluster in previous games.

That's an extreme, but it points out that even minor tweaks in game strategy can sometimes have a positive impact, rather than playing the same way each time and saying that other features mean nothing.

The real point of this thread is that there's many ways to accomplish things. Stonehenge is one path, but there's literally a dozen other ways to accomplish what you want on a given map. That's kinda the nice thing about Civ, cookie cutter doesn't work every time, and it shouldn't.

Exactly!

Clear only if 1 extra local happiness is your priority. Cathedrals provide an extra art/artifact slot, which may be key in a culture game, while Mosques provide more faith, which may enable more Great Person purchases post-Industrial. As you say, cookie cutter doesn't work every time.

Well said!