I'm very excited for the new GP system

[JtW]

I haven't seen this discussed yet, so here goes:

This German article speaks about the new way Great People will be handled.

For those of you who don't know German: there is going to be a global pool of Great People that all civilizations draw from. And if you get, let's say, a Great Prophet, the cost of the next Great Prophet rises for all civilizations. Equally important: each Great Person is going to provide unique bonuses now instead of the same generic bonus for each type of GP.

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I am very excited for this: it is a great game mechanic to mimic the way civilizations try to attract talent. Yes, it's very symbolic and highly abstracted, but it sounds like it will be very immersive.

Also: having each Great Engineer/Scientist/etc. be different and do something else will provide the game with a lot of character. Right now, Great People feel like little more than random bonuses.

One thing I'm very curious about: will specific Great Prophets have founder beliefs tied to them now? I think it's very likely that it will be so.

What do you guys think?

EDIT since a lot of people only read the OP: I failed to mention that the article says you'll be able to straight up buy GP with gold and faith. So I think this will be a way to snatch that special GP if you don't have a chance to otherwise win the race.

 

[stealth_nsk]

So far it's the most controversial system announced. It looks like overcomplication for no gameplay reason, with possible balance issues.

The only thing which gives me hope is what we know little about it and developers did sane things so far, so probably there's just more to reveal.

 

[BttLsht]

Hopefully the pool is big enough and their ability balanced.

 

[masda_gib]

That means not every civ can go for the same kind of GP. At least not cheaply. If Babylon gets the first two Great Scientists then the other civs will have to wait longer.

I think it's a good system as it gives interaction/competition between the civs. Not just each on its own anymore.


As good as the specials for each individual GP sound, I hope they are not too special. GPs should not be individual heroes I think.

 

[Haggbart]

It's a nice idea, I'm curious if you can accumulate enough points to get a GP and put it on hold untill there comes one along that have bonuses you want, or do you need to tune down your GPP-accumulation to delay your next GP in that case.

 

[Felis Renidens]

Let every city with a holy site pray for the Great Prophet Zarquon to come again.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Let every city with a holy site pray for the Great Prophet Zarquon to come again.

Moses will be pretty useful on Archipelago maps.

EDIT: I'd say once you come from the initial hype (wohoo, more features!) and think about actual bonuses, they look rather silly from realism standpoint even more than they look pointless for gameplay.

 

[JtW]

It looks like overcomplication for no gameplay reason

I disagree. I think it ties rather well with their general design decision to reduce the "autopilot" of the human player. It will be yet another place where you will have to make decisions: this next Great Scientist gives a really great bonus. Do I ramp up my GP points production or do I forego him and focus on something else instead?

It is a question of whether they can make the unique abilities worth it - and if it will be reasonably easy to influence that race.

Let every city with a holy site pray for the Great Prophet Zarquon to come again.

This right here is an example of why I think this system will be immersive.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I disagree. I think it ties rather well with their general design decision to reduce the "autopilot" of the human player. It will be yet another place where you will have to make decisions: this next Great Scientist gives a really great bonus. Do I ramp up my GP points production or do I forego him and focus on something else instead?

It is a question of whether they can make the unique abilities worth it - and if it will be reasonably easy to influence that race.

Ok, the point of choice vs. autopilot is correct, but what choice is this? Take current GP or wait till it will be taken by AI and take the next one. This will work only if some GP are much better than others (at least situational), which could have very painful consequences for game balance.

Also, I don't see the system working well in multiplayer.

 

[DefiantMars]

I'm a bit nervous about potential snowballing or a Civ being constantly beaten out. We'll have to see how the system works and if Firaxis has put in a measure to prevent total onesidedness

 

[Staal]

Personally my first reaction to the change wasn't positive. It is however a change that is difficult to judge until it is play tested by ourselves. So unlike some I won't be stamping my feet and screaming that I won't get the game because of it.

It'll be interesting to hear Ed's thoughts on the reasons behind the design change.

 

[oddtail]

I have two problems with this approach, even though it does look interesting.

Firstly, it worries me that investment in a Great Person will be very risky if someone snatches the GP before you. This may be unbalanced and frustrating/unfun. One thing I actually liked about Civ4 that was not present in Civ 5 was "the first civilization to get tech X gets benefit Y (e.g. a religion)". I'd like for that to return in some form, but... the new GP system looks similar, but there's one key difference. Going for a tech in Civ 4 requires moving fast and if someone else beats you to it, you still get other benefits. Going for a GP, if that's your main goal, will likely not give you much, other than the extra specialist yield. That may prove to be a very weak investment.

One system in Civ 5 that worked similarly was Pantheons, but those worked for three reasons, IMO. One, you could still snatch a decent Pantheon if several other civs beat you to the first ones. Secondly, the investment was relatively small (up to 50-ish or so Faith on larger maps). Thirdly, the gap between successive Pantheons was small, only 5 Faith each.

I hope the GP threshold will increase, similarly, by a smallish amount. Like 100/120/150 points, rather than 100/200/500 etc. Or possibly the pool of GP will look similarly to the Beliefs pool in Civ 5 - there's a large selection at any time.

Which brings me to the second problem there might be:

The system might be rather random. If there is too little selection for, say, Great Scientists at any given time, there might be little meaningful choice involved. You either try to take what is currently on the table, or you do not. If your general inclination is to take a Great Scientist, there will not be that much difference between whether there is Great Scientist A or Great Scientist B currently on offer. You will probably take whatever you can get. This makes the game more random rather than more involved, and replaces choice with a variable outside your control. That might be bad for the gameplay.

 

[Atlas627]

From the descriptions, it sounds like a system similar to that of Colonization. In that game, you gathered points toward selecting a specific Great Person (who were arranged in order of power and by type), and when you had enough points to get a specific person, you immediately had to choose to grab them or save the points. If you didn't grab them, you couldn't later, and if anyone else grabbed them, they were unavailable to you. Nobody got all of the same type because everyone else who didn't get GP #1 kept their points and therefore got to #2 or #3 first.

A system like this would work really well in Civ. If they want to keep with the theme of adapting to the cards you're dealt, they could even randomize the order of the GPs by era, and maybe scale their power so later ones are always more powerful. I look forward to this system.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Going for a tech in Civ 4 requires moving fast and if someone else beats you to it, you still get other benefits. Going for a GP, if that's your main goal, will likely not give you much, other than the extra specialist yield. That may prove to be a very weak investment.

As far as we know, it works other way - if you're beaten in GP race, you get another GP with different set of bonuses. Say, Einstein instead of Newton. The new one could be even better, so it may be worth not taking GP once you can and wait for AI to take it.

EDIT: BTW, you've just reminded me why I need to worry about Ed being lead designer in Civ6 The Civ4 was all about races - the winner takes it all. While race mechanic is good, wonders and religions are quite enough. I wouldn't want every aspect of the game to be like this.

 

[ShadowWarrior]

This system sounds good so far. Each GP has different bonuses instead of the generic bonuses. That would really force you to have to choose. And since you are not guranteed that you will get the GP you want for each game, that means this game becomes more and more replayable.

 

[Felis Renidens]

If they just get better and better than playing against other humans will raise the question - who will take the first (weakest) one?
If they don't then not taking is a risk.
Might be good to at least divide them by era, with those of the same era of comparable utility (Some may fit your situation better than other, non is universally good). If you are about to move up an era you may want to hold, otherwise depends if the bonus fits your situation or not.
Pantheons beliefs mentioned earlier are a good example.

 

[JtW]

I think people who are worried about constantly being beaten to a GP miss the point.

Let's say, the next Great Scientist costs 100 points. You have 80 points, another civ beats you to it with 100 points. They get the GS, and the cost rises to 120 points. But they now have 0 points, while you still have 80. So they would have to generate 120 points in the time when you generate 40 to beat you again. So everyone will get their chance.

 

[oddtail]

I think people who are worried about constantly being beaten to a GP miss the point.

Let's say, the next Great Scientist costs 100 points. You have 80 points, another civ beats you to it with 100 points. They get the GS, and the cost rises to 120 points. But they now have 0 points, while you still have 80. So they would have to generate 120 points in the time when you generate 40 to beat you again. So everyone will get their chance.

I understand that much, I just worry that getting the second best GP might be too weak if they differ in powers significantly - there's a risk you get an effect that is useless for you, rather than what you were originally shooting for. And if, on the other hand, the GP differ very little, the global pool of GPs becomes somewhat pointless.

Might be tricky to have this both interesting and balanced.

EDIT: also, if the next GP in line is not known in advance, there's little room for planning. Say there's a very beneficial Great Engineer available after the previous one was snatched up. If you don't have some GE points accumulated already, it doesn't matter if you want him - other players are likely already en route to getting him. So the knowledge of what the GE does has very little bearing on your decision to accumulate GE points. Unless there's a way to catch up easily with players who are already in the race, which I can't imagine how it would work.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think people who are worried about constantly being beaten to a GP miss the point.

No, that's not a problem. The problem is how to make the system both balanced and interesting. We really need to wait for details.

 

[Haggbart]

If they just get better and better than playing against other humans will raise the question - who will take the first (weakest) one?
If they don't then not taking is a risk.
Might be good to at least divide them by era, with those of the same era of comparable utility (Some may fit your situation better than other, non is universally good). If you are about to move up an era you may want to hold, otherwise depends if the bonus fits your situation or not.
Pantheons beliefs mentioned earlier are a good example.

This all depends on how it will work with the GPPs. For example if the price of the first GP is 80 GPPs but it's rather weak, it will probably be chosen eventually if its price does not rise as the next GPs are chosen, simply because it eventually will be dirt cheap compared to the next GP available. Also, the dynamics would change quite a lot based on if the counter is reset to zero, or the cost of the GP you chose is simply detracted and you keep the rest towards your next GP.