Imbalanced luxuries and nature landmarks.

GoreBush

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What do you peoples think about such landmarks as Fountain of Youth and Mt.Kilimanjaro ? Personally i dont understand why this overpowered things exist. Especially Fountain, it is ridiculous military-wide buff. Every time i can grab this i just quit the game because of future boreness.

Same with some luxuries. Overall %-based monopolies are in par with flat-based from the very beginning of game, but later in the game they massively outperform any tile-based monopolies. I dont even mention cases where the only 1-2 tile-based monopoly luxury copies exist on map - it is completely pointless. Especially strong such luxes as salt, sugar and in less degree olives - 10% to food production from the very start of the game literally burst your entire party ( also because of this i think Artemis is best game wonder ).

Are we need some correction or rework for luxury system and for some unique landmarks for the balance purposes or it is better just leave this as a kind of generator of strategic asymmetry and interesting situations?
 
Kilimanjaro is op (if there are hills) because mobility is so good to easily catch the AI off guard.
Fountain is strong but not nearly as strong (yes I agree much better for the human player).

I find tile based science monopoly as some of the best possible since every tile is like a free libraby and a strong early game scales into a good later game.
Food% is probably strong under some setups but plenty of situations where you DONT want to grow too much/too fast and early sugar is a really bad early lux where you often need to also clear marsh.
All % bonuses are addative, so if you have +food from granary, aqueducts, grocier etc those 10% from lux isnt that much.
Salt is good but mainly because Im a fan of god of fire with salt, amazing early yields.

I can see Temple of artemis be good in a peaceful tradition game but Terracotta is miles better with authority, here we can talk broken.
So all in all I think it depends on your goals and what direction you are going.
 
All % bonuses are addative, so if you have +food from granary, aqueducts, grocier etc those 10% from lux isnt that much.

There is no any relations between % to food production from Artemis/monopolies and % to food carried from one growth cycle to another from granaries, aqueducts etc. It is different mechanics. Artemis and monopolies physically increase food% you own from all sources ( except internal trade routes ) and it applies even BEFORE consumption calculated. And it is very strong. Granaries/aqueducts just speed up growth of new pops by reducing amount of food needed throw to grow pool.

20-25 size city trivially can produce 100 food. 10% is 10 raw extra food that can be used for grow or maintaining specialists. And it is already bonus from entire Hanging Gardens. And it is no finish and usually you have more than one city.

But i agree that flat-science tile based monopolies also very strong in the beginning since you have very little options to boost it before even libraries become available
 
There is no any relations between % to food production from Artemis/monopolies and % to food carried from one growth cycle to another from granaries, aqueducts etc. It is different mechanics. Artemis and monopolies physically increase food% you own from all sources ( except internal trade routes ) and it applies even BEFORE consumption calculated. And it is very strong. Granaries/aqueducts just speed up growth of new pops by reducing amount of food needed throw to grow pool.

20-25 size city trivially can produce 100 food. 10% is 10 raw extra food that can be used for grow or maintaining specialists. And it is already bonus from entire Hanging Gardens. And it is no finish and usually you have more than one city.

But i agree that flat-science tile based monopolies also very strong in the beginning since you have very little options to boost it before even libraries become available
Do you then also praise Gurdwara and Harappan reservoir?
 
They are both good natural wonders. That said I don't get them every game. So it's fun when you do get them. It sucks when the AI you are at war with have them. Regarding the luxuries. I find that they sort of influence my early game which I have. Naturally the best once are camp and mine:able once. Fishes are second. The once where you have to chop and build plantations are the worst since it takes so much effort.

I find that the 10% food things are ok. It's not that they are to great. It's just that some of the others are kind of meh and bad. But as with all things situational. I might not care to much about the once that give me +2 golden age points or +x faith or something. 10% gold or extra culture are much more significant and great compared to the food, unless I'm India or Tradition playing or something. That said food is always great. Food makes your empire strong. You just have to play into it. So what you get early influences the future.
 
Same with some luxuries. Overall %-based monopolies are in par with flat-based from the very beginning of game, but later in the game they massively outperform any tile-based monopolies.
I agree, all +10% yield monopolies are significantly stronger than +2 +3. Early on, getting +6 science in a city from 3x luxuries with +2 science each, is better than +10% science, but when you have cities without these luxuries, this global modifier becomes stronger and stronger, especially later with better scientific buildings, specialists etc., so that it alone will give you 50-200 science/turn in total.
When time comes for proposals a vote about rebalance would be nice. As you said It's not obviously bad. Asymmetry and unfairness can be fun.
 
Overall %-based monopolies are in par with flat-based from the very beginning of game

agree, all +10% yield monopolies are significantly stronger than +2 +3.

They aren't.

Flat +2/3 monopolies are vastly stronger and I am really a bit stunned by reading otherwise. Let me explain:

- First of all, flat monoplies should be prioritzed at all cost and only then they work as intended. Progress is already the strongest policy (on par with tradition depending on civ and start), no matter what you want to do later, and flat monopoly is a big incentive to choose it. The +2/3 monopoly if prioritised, should double your culture, and give you at least 50% if not 75% more science, faith and gold. This can't compete with +10% in the first half of the game.
- Secondly, the game is decided (or your position for the second part of the game, if you can mantain lead or still have potential to topple/surpass those in lead) in the first half, let's say up to industrial.
- It is not true at all 10% are equal to flat bonuses from the very beginning. You should get +10/15 in total by turn +/- 50, every turn is precious (settling on top of resources if necessary, buying workers, tech path only to get monopoly + settlers, no wonders or army if they are not on the tech path of course, unless some rare opportunity is present). And that's the minimum (+2/3 x 5 resource tiles) to get the monopoly on standard and large maps where there are 8/9 standard luxuries, it gets additional +/- 2 tiles shortly thereafter to give +14/
- Sell the first and usually second and third luxury asap for 2/3 + some gold from you, GPT from the AIs. This GPT will allow you to buy workers faster no matter what is your policy, price is always 160 gold. You will have enough happiness and you should usually buy one from the AI for a city state quest and more instant gold or to get an alliance.
- You have to consider what improvements and tech path are to connect each luxury. +2/3 monopolies can be achieved extremely fast with only two tech which also covers your mobility to be founding cities on island/avoiding barbarians on land when you have a sea resource.
- You have to consider the terrain and features on which they spawn. Just a couple of examples, copper 10% production is weaker than gold or silver as it spawns on grasslands and plain more frequently and gets gold from forge, and I see it many times on flat tiles, while gold or silver usually get great desert/tundra hill, which have great floodplains, oasis, deers and tundra pantheon. Jungle/forested +2/3 plantations give great opportunity with progress to rush bronze working for a sweet 40 production when chopped, then (or before) the wheel to keep workers occupied with roads in the meantime (which means +12 science with 4 cities in itself probably doubling your science, as you first should be getting monuments/production buildings/shrines, not councils) and only then calendar, so the delay in monopoly is offset by faster shrines/monuments in new cities.
- Now a big one: yields from tiles just normally, apart from monopoly, which stacks with them. For example whales get +1 science plus 10% which will be better by renaissance, which is nice. But you know what is nicer? Plus 2 instead of 1 production from crabs in addition to +3 food that will allow you to get +3 science from a scientist faster, +1 faith and culture on incense on top of that +2 faith, plus one culture from the start from wine iirc before monopoly and +2 faith in addition later. There are more +2 sea monopolies (which are the most accessible with just two techs and the strongest ones, earliest specialists cause of lots of food) than 10% ones. Plantations without forest/jungle are mostly +2, those with forest/jungle (free production) are also strong, though weaker than the others, well maybe citrus and cinammon are also very strong cause of crazy good initial yields and double +1 production for cinanmon (both herbalist and a market, also +1 food for faster specialists, very strong). Perfume can be not very but strong if connected early enough and as a naked tiles resource it should be, gold gets you invaluable workers to buy and get tiles and buy out crucial buildings. +10% also have the weakest resource among them: the olives. Apart from tea and salt (which have the longest monopoly bonuses to come online) and aformentioned whales and probably some others I don't remember right now, 10% monopolies have weaker initial tiles, weaker bonuses from improving a tile and weaker bonuses from buildings. About the building bonuses that's very in general and this is the least important part why they are stronger, but I believe it is true, albeit by a slight amount. Bonuses from improving a tiles in addition to monoplies are the big part, and I really believe stacking like +culture and faith from pearls/incense/wine or +3 science iirc from coral makes even those +2 monoplies effectively plus 3/4 (as you get one culture and one faith from improvement in addition to monopoly, and then again from buildings, not one production, one food, and two gold for salt for example. those are just much, much stronger yields) as you can only work so much tiles in the begining and those will be luxuries, basically until the end of the game. And remember to settle on top of usually at least one resource to get faster monopoly as those monopoly yields and pantheon and building yields (from resources, not improvements) stay. You will get less those improvement yields vastly offset by faster monopoly. And try to settle, not work, flat desert incense (only +2 gold base yields) cause it will be very worthy, eventually plus 2 culture, 4 faith, 2 gold, 1 production after temples iirc, but very awkward tile to work as you need food and production tiles in new cities. Such tiles hamper growth and production, you don't want to choose betwen those and faith/culture. And those (and +2/3 monopoly tiles in general) are great to put one or two great person improvements over them, when you will have more other tiles to work, as all building, pantheon, and monopoly bonuses to resources stay.
- Plus two faith in the city offsets a shrine, plus two culture from a tile a monument, Of course you want them so you can get double monument and shrine per city effectively. But you are free to get an invested well, stone works or forge first to get all three of them fater. And in later cities, starting from a fourth probably you get those instantly the turn you found them, it's brutally strong.
- You have to consider those let's say +6 to culture/faith/ specially when playing tradition but also from the capital/main city for progress and authority, plus unique buildings, beliefs, and so on. In total you'll get +14/21 more or less (from 7 resource tiles) before turn. But those will not stay at +14/21, as you will get % modifiers from other sources. This +6/8 culture or science in the capital will be easily doubled by tradition quite early, other policies a bit later.
- Plus 2 faith monopoly with a good pantheon can get you first religion on deity more ofthen than not, without building shrines, which allows you to get more production and science buildings much faster and thus compete with the AI much more efficiently.
- Plus 10% monopolies are very inefficient in the first part of the game, just look at the production breakdown in a new game with progress, and it is 15% bonus to production for building , not 10% .Before turn 100, and you constantly get new cities which start with below 10 production, it will take 20-30 turns to each of them to get even 2/3 production from it, progressively faster with each new city, more workers to improve tiles, etc. It will take probably a fully worked guild in addtion to culture pantheon, arena, and a monument to get +2 culture from 10% monopoly, and a worked a library and university for science, to any non-capital/main city .
- Plus 10% monopolies do nothing to instant yields which are a great source of yields in the first part of the game. We are talking bonuses from founder beliefs li, culture for tech and buildings from progress, gold and science from citizens in progress, production and gold from expanding borders in authority, science and culture for killing camps and units in authority.
- Of course +10% scale better, but only mid-late game. But you have to survive a warmonger, found religion, found new cities offsetting their culture/science penalty. You'll get one and a half policy tree before 10% monopolies will get better than +2/3. And they will still require some time to offset them being weaker in the early game. And flat bonuses give you a better position in mid game, when you most likely conquer/settle/get from city-states/ all of that another monopolies among which you can get 10%.

In total +2/3 monopolies are stronger until around late medieval. By early/mid renaissance yields explode due to scaling (x3) and then enhances/reformations/policies/bonuses to specialists/bigger population in cities and unlocking two guilds, so 6 buildings and 12 (!) culture specialists in addition to your 6, not to mention you start working a new engineer and scientist, and probably settling final cities or conquering some, that all happens around this time late medieval-mid renaissance.

I hope this will clarify some things. It was a fun analysis that actually forced me to use my memory and connected the dots, colloquially speaking, a bit.
 
In a separate post, cause the last one was too long, and I forgot. I'm sorry for any typos/sentences inconsistencies in the above post, I had a fun Friday night and was writing it tired but still stimulated right after, initially starting from shower thoughts, LMAO. Maybe I will correct it a bit, maybe not, can't guarantee.

I do not think we have a general imbalance of monopolies/luxuries, all can be work with or around, I said flat yields are much stronger, but they sort of obsolete after mid game, and it's not like others are weak, if anything +6 happiness and golden age modifier (unless you stack it and actively focus on golden ages) are even weaker, but have strong early yields, so it's okay. I would say only olives are disappointing, and I would change them for +10% gold or even better +3 gold or 3 food. And there's historical reason for that, I googled it (cause I had kinda stopped and thought why are the olives a luxury in the first place) and read for 30 seconds and found this: "For thousands of years olives were grown primarily for lamp oil, with little regard for culinary flavor". I knew about importance of whales before electricity, never heard of olives. Civilization taught me many things about the wider words, and it doesn't stop. Anyway, more light would necessarily be a great opportunity for longer work/commerce/transport of goods, represented by gold. Moving their building bonus from arena earlier would also work but be far less exciting and unique. More gold also make them more useful for gold-starved tradition or things like America UA, without locking them into progress. Now that I thought of it, I really like it. But that's a minor thing, not like a pressing balance issue. Just food for thought.

Natural wonders:
I usually reroll if I see the fountain in the first few turns. It's pointless, it's annoying, and I don't want a free goddess of protection, nor do I want to see it in neighboring AIs either. It's mythological and out of place both in game mechanics and setting. I would either remove it or turn into unique oasis, the same we have a unique lake in Victoria.
I would leave but nerf Kilimanjaro to only grant unique promotion to one type of units, IMO foot ranged units, definitely not melee or mounted ones. Or maybe only in owned land. There are a lot of good options, I don't know how possible is it to code an actual change into the promotion.
Sri Pada is unassumingly the most powerful of them all (movement for missionaries and workers is always active and strong, not only at war or healing) but I see it very rarely. I would remove it completely/get rid of the bonus for consistency. Or maybe leave it as only religious units movement bonus and religion-themed wonder? That would be great too.
Another and better solution would be not nerfing but retaining bonuses and make them activate only from the specific, later era (I would still remove the fountain). Or maybe only for the specific era (for example renaissance for the Sri Pada, the time of great religious wars, the reformation and counter-reformation, before humanity became more sexular, and time where religions are already well established in the game, just compete for the remaning non-founders. I think it would made a great pressure and opportunity to secure them and plan to maximise their benefits while they last. But it would be impossible cause it would only work if AI can understand and utilise it against the player, and that it can factor it when settling/conquering cities, otherwise it would be a handicap for the player which I do not want to see.
 
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While i don't completely agree with you regarding the monopoly and which are stronger; The natural wonders especially Mt. kalimangaro is so OP; i use the modular hokath tweaks to modify the promotion it provides that it confers only 10% CS in hills instead of the game winning double movement in hills.
On the other hand the fountain of youth is a nice bonus while undeniably strong it's not game breaking like Mt. Kalimangaro; i don't rage quit when i face an opponent who has it in their territory like i did against opponents with mt Kalimangaro.
I agree that mt. Kalimangaro should be nerfed in the next congress session
 
I love Fountain of Youth and Mt.Kilimanjaro, two things that give a bit of fantasy to a game that is too much math. Please do not touch them!
 
I generally scan each map before starting my game to ensure it has fun natural features for future wars (choke points, etc). I always play on 3 billion years old for more mountains.

The scan also has the handy benefit of allowing me to delete Kilimanjaro and FoY if I notice them. Sometimes I don't, and an AI gets them, it makes them a fun mini boss. Although if the AI who gets FoY is also the #1 snowball opponent later in the game, fighting the war against them is incredibly not fun because it increases the amount of clicks in the war by like 3-4x.
 
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The Bigger Huge Maps for Communitu_79a usually generates Fountain of Youth on the other continent where no civs exist.
I like the setting.
It becomes a mini game to get Fountain of Youth, like the story of Pirates of the Caribbean


It can be further improved by limiting the global effect to work only when the city which builds the unit is connected to the Fountain of Youth by trade routes.
 
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I generally agree with Jeddite's analysis but there are some key considerations you guys have not addressed:
  • Boat luxuries are generally stronger because they come on so much faster. If you can get a pearl monopoly with 3 cities and take God of the Sea, that guarantees you a religion even without building shrines outside of your capital. Coral is also amazing. The only time that I do not like boat luxuries is if 1) your map script spreads them out and makes achieving a monopoly hard. 1) my civ requires beelining to another tech early on (Mongols, Maya etc)
  • To expand on Jeddite´s point: As a general rule, faith is the best, then culture/science, production, gold, food, and happiness. A couple notes: food is not so bad if your civ can go tradition because it feeds your specialists but it really sucks for warmongers. Truffles would work well if you have lots of hills, preferably with iron/marble, but it usually is surrounded by other flat/green terrain that also has lots of food. Same for crabs. Happiness conversely is better for warmongers but still weak. One exception is that furs can still be super strong with the right pantheon but that has more to do with imbalance in pantheons.
  • This goes even more so natural wonders. Heavy faith wonders are amazing. Saves so many hammers from no needing to build shrines. Or I can pick a religion that gives me early bonuses from spreading. If my closest wonder is food or gold, I am unlikely to weigh it heavily into my decision about where to settle unless I picked the pantheon that rewards natural wonders.
  • There is an old thread on this theme that is someone outdated but I think the overall conclusions hold up in most cases. Pearls and coral are still S tier while dyes are still the worst IMO. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/starting-luxuries-tier-list.653635/
 
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