(8-29a) 4UC Netherlands: Dutch UA Rebalance

[hokath]

Base Proposal:

(8-29) 4UC Netherlands

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Dutch civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

The Netherlands UA is extremely problematic. From the sheer amount of yields it can generate, to the semi-incompatibility with multiplayer, the thing is kinda scuffed. To be clear, in the early Renaissance the Dutch UA can generate, without resorting to crazy map settings, numbers in excess of your base culture. That is, hundreds of culture per turn. Imagine if a UA read "gain +100% Culture". Of course it falls off with somewhat into the late game, and there are caveats, but the effect is simply too strong.

If the rumours are true, sometime today there will be a counterproposal to replace the Dutch UA with something completely different.
I'm not really for something completely different, but at the same time the current UA needs to be balanced.

Here at Hokath Research and Development we have been working hard over the past few weeks to test alternatives.
To keep the Dutch identity the same (that is, around monopolies and trading) but without some of the abominations, I am proposing the following option

UA - Dutch East India Company
Luxury resources produce +1 and +1. Gain +4/+3 for every unique Luxury Resource you import or Export, scaling with Era. Can import duplicate Luxuries from Civilizations which count toward Monopolies.

Logic:
Remove culture from trading: It is now clear that in a fair deal trading a unique Lux to the Dutch should net you an extra +3 , scaling with era. This is both more multiplayer and AI friendly.
There is no bonus for exporting: This focusses the UA and removes the multiplayer headache from this half of the transaction.
Increased gold: To offset the loss of and exporting, you receive more $$$. This focus helps the Dutch afford to use the monopoly part of the UA.
Culture from Luxuries: This gives a small domestic boost and retains some of that early boost feeling, though at a more reasonable level.
Gold from Luxuries: Some luxuries (e.g. Lapis, Salt, Tea,...) don't give any Gold. This boosts your output to give you a leg-up with some early purchasing, and ensures Luxes will always get +1 Gold with Golden Age (minor synergy with 4UC Artists).

This change should be fully database compatible using Trait_ResourceYieldChanges. The import and export parts are already separate tables. Only thing I don't know about is if the UI on the trade screen works one-sided, if you see what I mean.
All other components remain as in the base proposal.

 

[Circe]

I think it's fundamentally impossible to make this ability multiplayer friendly. Humans still have no reason to give their resources to the Dutch, especially not enough to reach monopoly levels. At least they have some incentives to buy resources, because even if doing so strengthens William, they might not have any other choices to get those luxuries.
It may be best to restrict the tile bonuses to improved luxury resources so they're not receiving more culture from turn 0.

 

[pineappledan]

For reference, this is the alternative UA that was being discussed on the discord:

Wisselbanken
Can go into debt at 2% interest. (ie. maintenance cost per turn for every -50 gold stored)
Receive 2% of your Gold reserves as Science (ie. gain +1 per turn for every 50 gold stored)

Note: Negative GPT while you have 0 or less gold will still affect your science per turn, but there is no penalty for having negative gold as long as you are still earning.​

Doelen change:
Remove yields for every monopoly on empire
Add ability that halves the gold steal value of enemy spy actions in this city.

Rationale:
Reasons why the current UA is bad:

• The current UA is too hard of an idea to get to work in multiplayer.
  • Either you set up house rules that people have to trade with the Dutch, but even then the value of the UA will be priced in, neutralizing its value
  • Or you don't establish any rules and make the Dutch fundamentally dependent on the willingness of other players to trade with them. This leaves the civ ripe for abuse and trolling, because other players know that they can simply turn off the Dutch player's UA by refusing to trade for even the most advantageous of deals. Unlike AI, the players will absolutely cut off their nose to spite their face, because it's funny.
• The current UA's balance feels too loose to be a mainline VP ability. It feels like I'm playing a modmod.
  • as OP states, you can double your culture with this ability in certain stages of the game.
• The Dutch are too strong right now
  • We have have repeated reports of players able to reliably push the UA to its limits and create an unstoppable culture engine that catapults them to secure leads.
  • The AI rankings seem to indicate the computer is also quite good at exploiting the Dutch kit
• The UA name is dumb
  • The UA name used to be more egregious when there was a UNW called 'East India Company'. Even with the UNW name changed to chartered company, that is still what the Dutch East India Company is, so the UA and the UNW are referring to the exact same thing.

Reasons why this new UA is good:

• The ability to enter into debt is totally unique and creates an interesting puzzle for players to solve on how to maximize the use of the ability
• Creates different approach to gold management:
  • Do you buy an extra pathfinder or worker turn 1 and bear the increased maintenance cost, or do you save up to try to get an early science lead?
  • Do you work wealth processes to bank up?
  • How do you deal with espionage in this circumstance? Is it worth trying to hold onto lots of gold knowing that makes you a target for other players?
  • Do you save your money as much as possible or put your money to work? Can you make every gold spent worth more than 0.02 per turn?
• reference to the first central banking system in the world. The Dutch created the idea of a central bank as a lender of last resort. This UA references their economic ingenuity

@Nightmare Dusk

 

[azum4roll]

Glorious turn 0 culture per population! It even caps at 3!

This focus helps the Dutch afford to use the monopoly part of the UA.

That part is human bait. You aren't going to "steal" a monopoly from another player unless you already own part of it (otherwise you get equal amounts of the luxury at best). And if you do, both human and AI players will charge you a ridiculous amount of gold for the last copy. All your gold spent on buying previous copies is wasted if you stop going for it.

The AI never goes for this unless they're already one copy away from getting the monopoly. I'd just remove that part of the UA.

 

[pineappledan]

Luxury resources produce +1 and +1.

I misread this as +1 for each connected luxury resource.
If this is directly on the tile then a few problems:
a) turn 0 culture
b) incentive to settle on resource
c) copy of Songhai Gumey ability

 

[hokath]

It may be best to restrict the tile bonuses to improved luxury resources so they're not receiving more culture from turn 0.

So it is intended for this to be pretty big early, since you have no other bonus. There is a danger to overnerf with this.
I was pondering this in comparison to old Russia science on strategics. But that did take a few turns to kick in.

Glorious turn 0 culture per population! It even caps at 3!

3! = 6
Yes, I realised this of course.
Ultimately +3 culture in the capital once you hit 3 pop is not the apocalypse. Compare to finding a culture ruin or adopting Tradition.

a) turn 0 culture
b) incentive to settle on resource
c) copy of Songhai Gumey ability

So b) I don't find a problem and c) you mean this icehockey that has ruined my UI for God knows how long,

?
First, "copy" is not an accurate use of language. Second, even if it were the same, it would make more sense here.

P.s. I will trade you a new Gumey icon for your vote and 3 horses

 

[hokath]

MAGI: Just database so sponsored by @azum4roll
Wait, I need to check the base proposal lol. Please hold.

 

[pineappledan]

except no, because this also implies the other parts of the Dutch kit like the Doelen are unchanged from the original proposal, and that requires new DLL

You haven't plainly stated if you are changing the 4UC components, but I interpret this proposal as not doing anything different with the 4UC stuff.

 

[hokath]

Great minds

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.