IMMaw Suleiman : Alone In The Dark

[gavenkoa]

You can do that several times he will never finish those chops that's luckily generated

I don't know if it is fair to repeat that many times.

I build some Wonders just as challenge. So I add restrictions at my will. I am OK with capturing one, safe capture/delivery of Worker is a mini-game inside main game, but keeping AI crippled (to certain point) seems unfair to me.

I saw that some players impose to play without capturing Workers even on Deity as a sign of a true challnege.

It's great when you are able to build all those wonders, but don't underestimate the relative calmness in the beginning

I played a bit longer I saw what you talking about. With only 3 cities and 3 Great Prophets I can be at 100% research but lack of production power.

Main problem of the last attempt was forgetting to switch to Representation after building Pyramid )) I see I lose game wasting 30T without Representation. Spending ~20T on Pyramid in return for 30*2GrPer/T so far - wasn't good.

Near T90 AIs started to trade techs. I managed to get Currency on T126 - it is usually a green sign for an expansion but so far I only managed to deal with near 10 AIs stacks without spare forces for offense. It was good exercise to build/deploy/rotate Horse Archers together with Super Medic (several Medic 3 HA and one Woodsman 3 Warrior).

I haven't used rich food tiles as much but Gold resource from the start is something amazing (game changing!).

 

[gavenkoa]

Maybe you can also found a religion with a Prophet, I would do it if I still need one

By discovering religious tech before AIs with help of Prophet?

 

[Gumbolt]

If all your doing is defending, then you will quickly lose this. The Ai will keep coming with bigger stacks. You need a plan. There is a lot of land here for Ai to expand into.
I would be crippling as many AI as possible before they get better units like phants/trebs/knights. Maybe even rifles.

You do have a decent UU here. I never really considered using it as you find yourself constantly fighting off Ai stacks. The biggest issue is engineering as this brings castles.

 

[gavenkoa]

If all your doing is defending, then you will quickly lose this. The Ai will keep coming with bigger stacks. You need a plan.

I see.

My prior experience with "peaceful" games (wait to the Currency) doesn't match current game reality.

For example for 125T flood plains had still undeveloped Cottages (worked on mines & rice/pigs) and I stuck to small city count (3).

 

[Tobiyogi]

I don't know if it is fair to repeat that many times.
I saw that some players impose to play without capturing Workers even on Deity as a sign of a true challnege.
.

Normally, yes. But here, you shouldn't be too noble. If you send a woodie towards Julius, he will never even build one road and so you have one sorrow less. With very early chariots, you can choke even more than 1 AI in those settings. It's part of that kind of game to keep your early reseach high with pillaging gold and in the best case to get some workers.

 

[Tobiyogi]

By discovering religious tech before AIs with help of Prophet?

No, that would be a waste. But you can tech Poly (it leads to Lit and you wanna build Heroic Epic) and Mono before (because OR is also useful). The GP should ideally bulb Theology. Even if you have already a religiion, the civic theocracy will be helpful later when you train lots of units. On AW, it is more than ever important to time the civics. So trying to build infracstructure under OR and then siege and other units with Theocracy.

 

[Gumbolt]

Really you wanted great spies here to steal techs. Great prophets seem a waste. Unless your economy is so amazing that you can reach cuirs super early? Even then you would of had at least 3-4 stacks to fight off. As you don't post saves it's hard to tell how well your game is really going. I assume you are playing always war. Otherwise it's not that hard a map.

I would be saving your Great Generals for super medic. You want your defenders to heal fast.

Others use CG3 to get 100% bonus for archers. With a GG you could share that over 3-4 defenders. Personally I like to play it more offensively. This would ideally involve a hill choking point with a view to upgrade to longbows.

 

[Tobiyogi]

On that map, offensive is much better. All the good city placements are NOT on hills, indeed, I have not found one good city that would be settled on a hill, exept the capitol. Also, we are not protective and we have a lot of cottagable FP. If we stack Longbows in the cities, they even might not attack at all but wander around and destroy the cottages. Especially with chariots. Lots of reasons to keep the enemies outside of our core. With IMP, I prefer to train one Super medic and the other GGs are settled in a city that will probably build the HE. With barracks/stables I can train mounted units from there with 13,15,17 even 19 EXP points. And during all that, I can stay in buraucracy and switch only occasionally to Theocracy.
Btw, with barracks + stable and 1 settled GG it is even possible to train Medic 2 mounted units as many as you want. You can send them to your different mini stacks If you have war on several fronts. Medic 2 is not bad at all and it can replace the super medic if you feel that you will need more medics during the game.

 

[gavenkoa]

The GP should ideally bulb Theology

I haven't considered this.

Playing a lot with Charismatic leader I developed habit to go for Stonehenge. But even with non-Charismatic leaders Stonehenge provides half-bonus as if you found a religion or a Creative leader. It is 30H per city saving (like post Mathematics chop, that also costs 4T of Worker).

First or second Great Prophet is good for the early capital with +2H+5C - you build faster (settlers/Pyramid/Great Lib), you can afford extra 1 city maintenance (that costs ~4C/T) per GP before Currency.

But 2nd/3rd Great Prophet when you are near the Currency - seems unfortunate... And acquiring own religion is nice if you isolated (on island, AW) + early Theocracy (Always War or Barbarian Challenge).

 

[Tobiyogi]

I cannot really understand the dislike of GP that many people have. Especially in AW, they are extremely good. I often do not even know what to do first with them here are some choices:
1. settling the GP is very helpful in the early game, like you said, it will finance another city
2. founding your own religion if you did not get one from conquest or from a lucky strike with Mono/CoL
3. starting a golden Age or even two with some other Great person later (in AW you cannot afford to go for music at this point of the game)
4. building a shrine because over time, that will guarantee even more income than the settled Prophet.

In a full-trade normal game, scientist is much better, but in AW, prophet is my first choice. Because you always struggle with money (lots of troopes and no foreign TR) and you have to beeline differently than normal.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I have seen there was a Charlie map with more or less the same settings. If that scenario is supposed to keep on going, I would roll a Cyrus map one day. Not only for the Immortals (good to raze some distant cities though), but mostly for the maximum of EXP points out of his traits IMP/CHA. Very useful starting techs and a decent UB (for more health) as well. So all in all a very solid choice for AW.

 

[gavenkoa]

I managed to reach Theology via Oracle.

Should I build Apostolic palace? +2H of religious buildings are very good bonus to get.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I don't think that will pay off. You still have to construct all the temples and monasteries. And for what reason? You don't need them. Monastery at max. in the capitol or in another very strong-teching city.

 

[gavenkoa]

I played to T140 and found that Currency is not game changing technology like it in peaceful games. I pay -30G for military and +5G (5 cities) after Currency is not something useful.

https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/game-mechanics/unit-maintenance-explained/

If we name the size of your population N and the difficulty level bonus D then the free support for units is
[0.24 * N] + D.
This difficulty level bonus is 5 at Deity, 6 at Immortal, 7 at Emperor, 8 at Monarch, 10 at Prince, 12 at Noble, 16 at Warlord, 22 at Chieftain and finally 28 at Settler level.

So increasing total population by 1/0.24~=4.2 we provide support of 1 military unit. Early on we can assume that 1 city provides support to one unit. And it would be a defender. Pure growth of population and city count don't help itself. Cities should provide gold surplus.

I don't understand how I can expand. I used attached save with Stonehenge / Oracle, Theology as starting position in several attempts, I can withstand waves of AIs stacks but I see no way to go offense.

Probably it is wrong opening for offense and more suitable for peaceful gameplay.

 

[Gumbolt]

From the T77 save. Why are you only on 3 cities? You needed 5-6+. There is room for 7-8 cities around your capital.

Guessing Shaka, Koreans, mansa and others all have iron hooked up. How did you defend against their initial stacks?

T140 save? I think this start needs iron or HBR to really fight off AI stacks. Otherwise you are relying on them to suicide stacks against a city near your capital. Eventually you will be fighting off stacks from Shaka and others,

 

[gavenkoa]

From the T77 save. Why are you only on 3 cities? You needed 5-6+

In next 10T I supposed to make 2-3 cities (I replayed several attempts from this point). I am not saying that this is the right way to play. Initially I thought that each city requires 3-4G for upkeep from my and I wanted to keep research rate high.

For posted save I started to add settlers via WB and looked to income when research is at 0%:

3 cities - 22G (original)
4 cities - 20G
5 cities - 17G
6 cities - 12G
7 cities - 8G

Without offsetting distance and civic expenses research rate drops significantly.

Also The Stonehenge costs 120H, The Oracle - 150H. That are missing 2 cities ))

 

[gavenkoa]

I was disappointed by Imperialistic trait... There are surplus food resources and 50% production multiplier applies only to Hammers ((

So I should build settlers from developed capital instead of young undeveloped cities (without mines). My capital was busy in grows and Wonder building ((

 

[gavenkoa]

I tried a game when I postponed chopping to Mathematics and at ~T60 Barbs and AIs interfere with Workers.

And most harmful I couldn't kill AIs if they are in forest. If there is forest next to the city on the way AI approaches it is a disaster.

Without forest my on alone hill cities smash stacks of AIs units proactively (say when odds > 80%) instead of waiting AIs attack my city themselves. And sometimes I suicidally weaken AI stack with Catapult.

Proactive actions stops AI deepening into my central less protected area. Forest tiles are evil.

So in subsequent attempts I prioritize chopping every forest tile adjusted to city and tried to chop as many 1 tile away.

The problem that I don't know how to spend chops properly. I invested into Granaries / Barracks / Workers. I tried not to chop weak military (Archers) as I opened Iron and Horses a bit later.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think you should be building great wall here. Deals with barb issue and helps with great generals. You can then steal techs with alphabet.

I had 7 cities by 900bc. Including an island city.

I really don't rate stone henge on this map. It's a lot of hammers.

With your traits you could use a GS for maths with an early library. You would need to test this. You would need writing.

Not sure if waiting for maths is a good idea chopping wise.

I wouldn't build more than 1 worker. The rest should be stolen from JC. You can steal 6-7.

As for jungle/forest around cities. I tried to clear these asap to stop AI sitting units on them next to my cities.

My biggest issue was lack of metal. If you tech IW you then need alphabet to steal techs.Plus currency to help economy.

I tend to get over involved in the warfare and lose track of my economy.

 

[gavenkoa]

My biggest issue was lack of metal

Isn't there Metal 4-5 tiles below initials settler position?

Did you mean lack of early Copper?

I wouldn't build more than 1 worker. The rest should be stolen from JC. You can steal 6-7.

I managed to do this first time with unskilled Warrior. But then his Archers were threatening me... Do I suppose to use Woodsman 3 for this? That means I need to actively approach Woodsman3 to avoid period with lack of Workers.

I usually helped producing workers by chopping around 6-8 forests (8*20 = 160H, worker price is 60H).

Army of workers is game changing. Any new city works on Farm or Cottage right away guaranteeing steep growth. Also net of roads provides Health and fast troop deployment and reinforcing.