Immortal Game #1

[Pedro78]

About food in granary: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-exactly-does-a-granary-store-food.623090/ (too lazy to re-explain it here but you can read this if you got a few minutes). Will play to T89 later tonight

 

[Izuul]

There aren't really any hard rules on granary optimization. If you truly want to optimize it, you have to do a little math on each city. Sometimes you can get away with building a granary a little later (typically with higher +food cities).

A S2 city growing back to S3 after a S4>2 granary whip can store 12 food. If that city has a +6 food surplus the granary will collect the maximum food in 2T so you could complete the granary as late as 17/24 food and still fill the granary because all of that overflow food still counts towards the granary bin. You store 6F going from 17 > 23 in the food bin and 6F going from 23 > 24. The city then grows with the 12F in the granary and the 5 overflow food.

You can also use the avoid growth trick Lymond mentioned to push that to 18/24 (in this example), but that's pretty situational and should only be used if there's not a strong tile to grow onto since you delay your city growth by 1T.

 

[Pedro78]

To be fair, I never turned up my slider past 0% for Alphabet

What I mean is you shouldn't have turned up your slider for Myst/Masonry so these beakers from scientists wouldn't have been wasted on Alpha.

Spoiler accidentally played to turn 89 :

Phalanx building began a few turns ago. Will get 3 catapults on the turn I reach Construction and attack ASAP. Zara is really weak and I can take ceasefires and re-declare whenever I want as GK hates him. Construction in ~4T.

Will take Addis-Ababa first unless he reinforces it. Slightly annoying as it's on a hill and has walls, but it's the closest by far (can take it on T1) and his only hilled city. He doesn't seem to have any real stack -- turns out catapults weren't needed. (couldn't have known that all his cities would be on flatland though, so Cats are still the safest move)

Spears will only be needed if he gets HAs (or elephants, who knows lol). Otherwise Phalanxes are good enough. I'll keep my scout as he's useful as a rekon unit and will become a medic later on. My Zara got Monarchy. If yours gets Confu it'll be pretty cool (although not game changing)

• It's good to start the buildup a few turns before Construction but you've started chopping too early IMO. No need for all these units right now. Your Phalanx-building timing is also not optimal: it's very easy to get 2 Axes from a single 2pop whip, here you're slowbuilding one in Athens and growing into unhappiness. I prefer to just whip away the extra population until a few turns to Construction and then get ready a 2pop Phalanx whip in both Athens and Sparta to OF into a 1T catapult (+1 chop ofc). Corinth will also get a 1T catapult with natural OF from a Phalanx (high base hammers). 6 Phalanxes and 3 catapults will be enough to start the war, especially when the appropriate roading is done and you have 3 workers chopping all these pre-chopped forests
• (Oh and yeah, watch out for the roads in your territory, they make a big difference when waging war with 1-movement units)

 

[Wrathful]

Will take Addis-Ababa first unless he reinforces it. Slightly annoying as it's on a hill and has walls, but it's the closest by far (can take it on T1) and his only hilled city. He doesn't seem to have any real stack -- turns out catapults weren't needed. (couldn't have known that all his cities would be on flatland though, so Cats are still the safest move)

So it's best to attack Addis Ababa because it's closest? In my game I spotted a decent number of units in Gondar - not exactly a major stack but still a fair amount.
Also, I should DOW with only 3 catapults and 6 phalanxes? Seems a bit cocky!

Your Phalanx-building timing is also not optimal: it's very easy to get 2 Axes from a single 2pop whip, here you're slowbuilding one in Athens and growing into unhappiness.

Yeah, I've gotten myself into a bit of a predicament with the phalanx currently being built in Athens. I can't two-pop whip him, and a chop would create too much overflow. I think I'll have to finish slowbuilding him.

I was going to play onward and I did play a few more turns, but I had to stop because I was getting too frustrated. I can't get all the worker actions done in time.

No matter how many times I reload I can't have workers in place to chop the forests on the turn Construction is discovered (as Pedro suggested), road to Zara, and get the fur camp done.

Pedro, when I compare my T88 save to your T89 save I see that you have so much more done than me.

You've prechopped at least 5 more forests, built more roads, and even had time to put two turns into a grassland mine near Corinth.

Each prechopped forest takes 3 turns to complete. (1 to move into the forest and 2 for chopping.)
Roads take two turns. Your road 1NE of Corinth took three because it's in the tundra.
You also put one turn into a road 2NW of Corinth.

I understand that your save is one turn after mine, so yours includes 4 more worker turns. But even with that taken into account, my calculations indicate that you've gotten around 19 more worker turns than me!

So is there something fundamentally wrong with my worker management or what?

 

[Pedro78]

Also, I should DOW with only 3 catapults and 6 phalanxes? Seems a bit cocky!

Depends on the number of units in Addis Ababa. These are the numbers I'll DoW with because I'll have exactly 6 phalanxes and 3 pults on the turn after I reach Construction. I'm 99% sure it is enough to take the first city and cease fire. More units will follow up quickly, but it allows to save on maintenance costs before war.

I had to stop because I was getting too frustrated. I can't get all the worker actions done in time.

Don't get frustrated. From your T88 save (didn't really look in depth) it's most likely not possible to get "everything" done in time. I remember getting a bit frustrated when Rusten rolled over the Boudica isolation game that I didn't even come close to winning. Then I just got over it, studied his saves and advice, analyzed my mistakes and now this type of map doesn't scare me anymore.. no point in getting frustrated

I understand that your save is one turn after mine, so yours includes 4 more worker turns. But even with that taken into account, my calculations indicate that you've gotten around 19 more worker turns than me!

So is there something fundamentally wrong with my worker management or what?

Hmm I really didn't do anything special, all seems pretty natural when you have 4 workers with 3 cities. There isn't much general advice to be given about worker management as it's highly situational. Maybe the most important thing is to minimize worker movement. Don't send 2 workers on a hill to build a mine, or 2 workers in a forest when not urgently needed etc. When you don't have anything to improve (only pre-chop and stuff), keeping 1 worker around each city is usually efficient, but then again it's situational. Anyway worker management comes with playing many games, so don't worry

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the reassurance Pedro. I probably did get a little carried away with my attempt to optimize everything. Like you said, these skills will only come with practice.

These are the numbers I'll DoW with because I'll have exactly 6 phalanxes and 3 pults on the turn after I reach Construction. I'm 99% sure it is enough to take the first city and cease fire. More units will follow up quickly, but it allows to save on maintenance costs before war.

Interesting...this should speed up the war.
Anything in particular I should know about axepult attacks? Should I bombard the city defenses? Addis Ababa will have 50% defense. It is also on a hill.

I made some progress. Almost ready to attack now.

Spoiler To T98 :

Made adjustments to my current position. Changed production builds. worker actions, etc. Lots of micro in these next few turns.

T90: These units on my border are making me nervous. They will certainly enter my borders and cause problems when the war starts. Will have to keep a couple of guys around, I guess.

T91: Not sure what Zara's doing. He's got three settling parties wandering around here. (Actually, I think the northeastern one is heading for the marble.)

T93: 2-pop whipped Phalanxes in Athens and Sparta. Corinth will finish a Phalanx with good natural overflow.

T94: Construction finished. 0% research set to Currency.
Chopped out some catapults.

T95: Mongolia is finally plotting, geez. Took him awhile.

T98: War preparations are complete. I will attack next turn. Addis Ababa will fall first. Then...not sure. Zara is enveloping me with his cities. He's claiming the fish soon too.

After taking Addis Ababa, how should I approach this? Ceasefire and go for his capital next? Gondar? Should I go after the fish city he will settle? Feels like this will be a slow war with these 1-movement units. I'm worried that the other continent is full of techers since all the wonders and religions are over there.

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler turn 98 :

• Zara 10 cities around T90 -- not bad for IMM AI
• On T94 Genghis DoW's Zara lol
• T95 - Genghis has apparently razed one of Zara's cities... don't do this you idiot!
• T96 Zara 10 cities again... WTH
• T97 I declare with this stack (forgot I could get one more Phalanx in Sparta when I stated 6 Phalanxes + 3 Cats). A few more units built and coming. A few more to be chopped/whipped.

• The Axe that is (was) on my way is killed on this turn @75+% odds

• T98. I bombard the city with one cat and suicide the other two. (except the second one survives).. the combat odds are now quite favorable -

• I take it without losses

I have some more units coming in. Zara is pretty much toast, I just have to grab the biggest part of him before GK takes a bite. I whipped Athens twice and now it will just run scientists/cottages. Corinth won't be whipped either (15 natural hpt is enough). Will take a ceasefire when available but I won't wait long for it, almost ready to go for Gondar anyway (considering the number of units I've seen in it last time checked). Will probably even split stacks pretty soon so I take him out quicker (a small stack will clean up his cities to the north, main stack will take out his core). Going for Aesthetics as Zara has plenty of forests, and as this is IMM it shouldn't be too hard to get the GLib. Zara's land is great so the next big stops will be Astro and Cannons (I'm just thinking out loud, take your time ofc, a lot to be learned practicing that tech path )

Anything in particular I should know about axepult attacks? Should I bombard the city defenses? Addis Ababa will have 50% defense. It is also on a hill.

TBH this is my first ever axepult rush lol. But it's situational as always. It's good to bombard when you don't have a lot of troops / have a lot of time. But bombarding cities that have walls with non-accuracy Cats is usually not recommended unless you really have a lot of them.

Addis Ababa will have 50% defense. It is also on a hill.

Not a problem in my game as it has so few units.

About your game -

• Taking his core is the priority. He won't be able to pump out many units (if at all) from the new cities for quite a while.
• Cease fires are very strong here as no one likes Zara and will give you diplo negatives for "you have declared war on our friend"
• Did not even think about Currency here. It's very useful when you have many neighbours but here it's kinda useless : only one AI to trade gold with (moreover it's GK lol), no neighbours to get +1 trade route with (you'll soon have more cities than GK anyway). This reduces Currency's value greatly. I'd rather focus on Aesth+Litt and early Optics+Astro
• I wouldn't worry too much about the techers on other continents. If you can grab Zara's awesome land the game is "won", even on deity

Uploaded more saves so you can look at the micro. (very basic and not completely optimal as I didn't make any calculations, but the basics are there )

Edit - looked at your save

• You have 8 phalanxes and 2 cats ready to attack on this turn. What are you waiting for?
• Unhappiness in Athens=not good
• The lack of prechopping will hurt a bit here as you'll be slower taking Zara out
• Not about your game in particular, but an annoying thing is that almost all of Zara's cities have food resource in the second ring... will require a bunch of monuments.. Pericles would have been so much better here

 

[Wrathful]

You have 8 phalanxes and 2 cats ready to attack on this turn. What are you waiting for?

Um..my third catapult to arrive.
Will DOW immediately. I hope I get good odds.

On T94 Genghis DoW's Zara lol

Ha..in my game he only just started plotting a few turns ago.

Not about your game in particular, but an annoying thing is that almost all of Zara's cities have food resource in the second ring... will require a bunch of monuments.. Pericles would have been so much better here

Pericles is just better in general, Although Alex's Aggressive trait has certainly been useful in this game.
Gondar is the holy city for Confucianism in my game, so it will have some culture. He should spread it to at least one other city with the free missionary. Monuments are easy to whip anyway.

Alexander the Great begins his conquests.

Spoiler To T104 :

I declare war on Zara on T98.

Sent in my army. Will hopefully take Addis Ababa next turn.
Hope Genghis Khan dogpiles on Zara soon.

T99: I had two catapults when I attacked. Decided against bombarding city defenses.
First cat attacks at 2.9 percent or so...loses.
Second attacks at 9.1%...also loses.

Promoted a Phalanx to CR1 and attacked with 40 percent chance or so...won.

Shock Phalanx attacked with 31 percent chance...won.

Lost one guy, then took the city.

T100: Zara wasted a turn by converting to Confucianism.

I didn't even know this was possible:

He's got a settler alone right next to my units!
Grabbed it with my spearman.

T101: Announcement reveals the largest empires.

Zara might have been first (not anymore!) Genghis has 9 cities but is only 4th. Unknown Civilization is in first.

Odeon 3-pop whipped in Athens:

Didn't see any other way to solve the happiness problems here.

Zara's not talking yet. I begin advancing to Gondar.

T103: Assualted Gondar. Got good combat rolls, but could not take the city by one unit.

T104: Took Gondar.

Zara Yaqob would accept a ceasefire. I take it. Need to get my guys into position.

Will stop here. Save attached as always.

 

[Fippy]

Good progress
Monument not needed in Addis, gets reli culture.

Hmm not sure what more to add currently, other than you should focus on Cats after those phalanx builds.
Corinth needs deer back, you can whip one soon here (no whip anger left).

Aesthetics line would already be too late now on deity, i have not much experience with times on Imm so hmm..others would have to estimate ~~

 

[Pedro78]

Aesth too late on deity but on IMM I'm pretty sure that you can get T120 GLib 95% of the time

Will play to T104 in a minute

 

[Pedro78]

Pericles is just better in general

Don't worry I just enjoy raging for no reason

Spoiler turn 104 :

Genghis captured Yeha on T101... annoying as it's a very good city. I'd prefer the war to last a little longer and get more good land. Can't have everything I guess.

Gondar goes down T102 (bombard all defenses, suicide 1 cat)-

Actually lost that fight lol. Also got one Cat killed by a chariot in my territory. Pretty balanced RNG so far. (except for that stupid Genghis)

Speaking of which he's got a really fearsome stack -

JK... but definitely enough to take Zara's northern city(ies).

I take ceasefire after Gondar. Re-declare on T104 with 5 pults and 10 Phalanxes heading to Aksum (probably overkill but you never know, and some might go elsewhere if it turns out to be too much when Aksum is in sight).

About unit production - no more forests. One more Phalanx whip in Sparta and I think I'm done with whipping. Ethiopia is almost broken already. (this map would have been hell on deity). I won't attack GK after Zara btw. Won't give me a faster win date on this kind of map. Economy is in a sad shape but Zara's land + marble failgold will still get me to Astro in a reasonable timeline (assuming I get some Parthenon failgold, which is far from guaranteed on IMM lol). Mids gold just came in. Next up is Poly-Litt-Sailing-Calendar (no need for monarchy here - 2-3 Calendar resources + fur + ivory). Getting that northern Silk city would be cool, will see what I can do about it. Concerning techs, I might also tech Alpha and bulb Machinery + Optics, would save some turns and I'll have a really good GS production here.

(Then go to Cannons through guilds and take Genghis out with Knights in the meantime )

@your game -

• Damn that settler. The AI will always surprise me with its stupidity lol
• That 3pop Odeon whip is ugly. I'd rather keep Athens at size 5 and run scientist. Not a great commerce potential anyway.
• You have a Phalanx sitting in Sparta for no reason
• You can turn your slider up - conquest gold will keep you on track
• Confu really good, GK not declaring on Zara is really good aswell (as he comes from the north he won't divert much of Zara's core troops anyway). If you take Zara out completely you'll probably end up in a better position than I am

 

[Wrathful]

Monument not needed in Addis, gets reli culture.

Ah, good catch, didn't see that. Will switch to granary.

Corinth needs deer back, you can whip one soon here (no whip anger left).

Ok, will whip a catapult there next.

That 3pop Odeon whip is ugly. I'd rather keep Athens at size 5 and run scientist. Not a great commerce potential anyway.

It is very ugly, but I couldn't see any other way out of the spiral of unhappiness. At size 5 the city was unhappy.

You have a Phalanx sitting in Sparta for no reason

He's the military police for that city. The catapult is just healing; he will move out in two turns. Units heal the fastest in cities (I'm sure you know that already, just pointing that out).
How about this - I'll move the current phalanx out and the one being produced will become the new MP.

You can turn your slider up - conquest gold will keep you on track

Yeah, that was a mistake. I saw in your game that you're already close to Aesthetics.

About Astronomy: So the best way to get it is to bulb it? To do this we have to avoid Civil Service or else we'll be forced into Paper, Education, etc.
We could get four Great Scientists: one for Machinery, one for Optics, and two for Astronomy. Shouldn't be too hard with Great Library, National Epic, and Philosophical trait.
We should also avoid Meditation I think, to avoid being forced into bulbing Philosophy.
What about Music? Is it worth getting for the golden age?

Question: Should I build the National Epic and the Great Library in the same city? Or should they be in different cities?
Aksum seems like a good candidate for the GP farm. Wet corn, sheep, and plenty of forests to chop out Great Library.


Let's continue!

Spoiler To T110 :

Turned up slider for Aesthetics.

T105: Zara the idiot lets me open borders again. Peeked at Aksum. Not very many units there.

T106: Re-declared on Zara. Going for Aksum.

T107: Seriously Zara, you need to stop doing stupid things:

I got a free kill there...

T108: Got a Great Scientist in Sparta. Will save him for bulbing.

T109: Assaulted Askum.
Got lucky with a catapult surviving with a 14% chance.
Lost 1 phalanx and captured the city.
Took a ceasefire from Zara.

Decided to convert to Confucianism. It will help with happiness in captured cities (and Sparta, religion spread there).
I don't mind the anarchy very much right now. Units are moving, cities coming out of revolt, etc.

T110: Found a pretty nice barb city. Will probably grab this after taking care of Zara.

You can also see Zara's culture to the west. This guy still has 7 cities! I want to wipe him out completely to get rid of "We yearn to join our motherland" unhappiness.

Next turn I will DOW Zara for the third time. I have a stack to take his northern cities. I have 2 guys who can take the city 4W of Corinth. Main stack near Aksum can go for Lalibela or Debre Berhan.

Maybe I'm being naive here but I feel pretty good about the situation. These are great cities. Once everything gets up and running my tech rate should skyrocket.

 

[Izuul]

About Astronomy: So the best way to get it is to bulb it? To do this we have to avoid Civil Service or else we'll be forced into Paper, Education, etc.
We could get four Great Scientists: one for Machinery, one for Optics, and two for Astronomy. Shouldn't be too hard with Great Library, National Epic, and Philosophical trait.

Avoid CS (and Theology) and then you have a choice b/t also avoiding COL or Meditation to prevent a Philo bulb, or you can bulb both Philo and Astro. Avoiding all of those is probably good in this game since you don't have any trading partners anyway.

I would probably stack TGL and the NE, but it does pollute your scientist pool with artist points. One artist isn't terrible though since you can use it to trigger a golden age at some point.

 

[Pedro78]

Played to T110, will write-up/comment later (a bit lazy right now, but a bunch of fun stuff happened there). Basically overestimated the number of troops I needed to take Zara out and overbuilt troops (IMM AI so weak ). I probably won't continue the game (really don't feel like doing all the micro until Astro TBH), but I'll keep checking in to read and comment your write-ups/saves

 

[Wrathful]

Avoid CS (and Theology) and then you have a choice b/t also avoiding COL or Meditation to prevent a Philo bulb, or you can bulb both Philo and Astro. Avoiding all of those is probably good in this game since you don't have any trading partners anyway.

I would probably stack TGL and the NE, but it does pollute your scientist pool with artist points. One artist isn't terrible though since you can use it to trigger a golden age at some point.

Actually didn't think about Theology since I hardly ever get it. Avoiding Meditation sounds good. Not sure about CoL though. I don't know if I can get all the required Great Scientists without Caste System.

I probably won't continue the game (really don't feel like doing all the micro until Astro TBH), but I'll keep checking in to read and comment your write-ups/saves

No problem. You've been a great help already.

 

[Gumbolt]

Your ecomnomy will need work here. You are losing 10 gold per turn at 100% tax. Some of this can be reduced by micro of cities. At present war seems best option to maintain your economy. At some point you will want currency. Getting trade routes with Mongols will also help. A workboat to head north here to explore? Sailing would also be required for coastal trade routes?

The captured cities have very few cottages or commerce resources. Capturing the ivory will be nice for happiness. Albeit you have the Odeon too. Your capital is more about production too.

Overall what is your plan after you have wiped him out?

Note Mongols are in war mode. If you are the target expect them to come knocking on your door soon. Even if you are not they can plot war at pleased. Getting them to pleased does reduce chances of going war mode in future. A shared war with mongols could help with diplomacy. See what happens.

Good effort on war so far. Only keep the best cities here. I don't like his new capital.

Once you have Aesth consider fail gold. Ivory/maths allows this too. Parth/stat Zeus.

 

[Snowbird]

Your ecomnomy will need work here. You are losing 10 gold per turn at 100% tax. Some of this can be reduced by micro of cities.

I think deleting scout and moving stack into the city (healing one to cut supply costs) and working some commerce instead of scientists puts him close to even at 0%.

The thing |I would be worried is Aesthetics... with Zara in war and Mongol you might not get Alpha until 500AD on immortal. And with land being what it is, IMHO, you need converter tech - Alpha/Currency - in order to use hammer tiles for research. Failgold is nice, but you might get into tech hole while waiting for it.

 

[Gumbolt]

He could bulb alphabet here but what would mongols really trade? I think the map as a whole will be slow tech wise here. The land is very poor. Doubtful the mongols have got much of use. Being able to use research would be a big help here which might repay lost bulbing beakers. Unless you wait for the AI.

All espiionage on Mongols. Wasted on Zara at this point.

 

[Pedro78]

About Astronomy: So the best way to get it is to bulb it? To do this we have to avoid Civil Service or else we'll be forced into Paper, Education, etc.

Yup avoid CS and Meditation ideally until Astro. Astro bulb is particularly strong because it has no direct prereqs so you don't get the 20% or 40% research boost when self-teching it, which makes it as expensive to self-tech as Rifling or SM

We could get four Great Scientists: one for Machinery, one for Optics, and two for Astronomy. Shouldn't be too hard with Great Library, National Epic, and Philosophical trait.

That's what I'd probably do. Requires Alpha to free up the bulbs but you can probably get it from GK by the time you're ready to bulb Machinery+Optics

What about Music? Is it worth getting for the golden age?

Here it's not worth it. Music is usually good for GA+trade bait. Here you won't get any trades until Optics, GPP are not a bottleneck and getting Music will delay Optics a lot.

The thing |I would be worried is Aesthetics... with Zara in war and Mongol you might not get Alpha until 500AD on immortal. And with land being what it is, IMHO, you need converter tech - Alpha/Currency - in order to use hammer tiles for research. Failgold is nice, but you might get into tech hole while waiting for it.

Aesthetics was teched for failgold+prereq for Litt, not for trades. Getting the GLib is huge here. OTOH self-teching Currency is very expensive and won't pay for itself at all on this map. Plenty of river tiles to work cottages and cities with low commerce can work hammer tiles into failgold. Bulbing Machinery and Optics will get him out of the tech hole very quickly.

In my game I would definitely stomp the Mongols because I have lots of extra troops (bad planning) but in yours I would probably just kill Zara slowly, not overbuilding troops. He has plenty of cities left for conquest gold and taking out the Mongols (up in the jungle belt and above) would most likely drag you down.

The land is very poor.

I only see rivers and food, not sure what you mean here

Anyway to T110 -

Spoiler one fun thing that happened :

Zara somehow took Yeha back while the Mongols were taking his silk city, and I saw a potential golden opportunity :

Spoiler the outcome :

Duh...

Maybe I'm being naive here but I feel pretty good about the situation. These are great cities. Once everything gets up and running my tech rate should skyrocket.

Well it will skyrocket from 30bpt to 150ish bpt in a few turns, but you won't see huge bpt for a while. I'd say you should reach ~600bpt when closing in on Steel if you get all of Zara's land.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes rivers and grassland in the middle area but not so much in the southern part of the map where you have wasteland. There are also large swathes of plains here. The Ai will not be so clever in where to settle cities here. Hence why I suggest a slow tech rate here. 125bc and no alphabet for Zara or Mongols seems very late. 53BPT with 100% science at 125bc is very low. Apart from capitals you will be lucky to find a city with 2+ food resources here.

For the start this map gave progress has been relatively good.