Immortal Ironworks beeline

[Vo01985]

I went to try out this tactic with Spain, but then I found The Great Barrier Reef (first to discover, bling bling) and The Grand Mesa (second to discover), at turn 10. Needless to say, I opted for a different strategy

 

[qemist]

I'm calling BS on this. There is no way you can get Great Library on any Immortal map.

I've played one game on immortal and got soundly beaten attempting this strategy. I built the GL though.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Science holds up just fine. The Machinery beeline here is only slightly longer than a standard Chivalry beeline for the civs with Knight UUs, and those civs are able to get to education and the wonders there just fine. In the game I'm playing currently with this strat, Paris has built both the IT and ND.

Tried this strategy with Russia. Assumed it can be even more powerful. But I'm not convinced yet. It differs from beelining Chivalry. On standard map you don't really need to pump beakers after that. Especially not with Mongolia. But even Arabia or Songhai. Horses are strong enough and fast enough and you start puppeting immediately to increase science input. Here non of the above applies. Maybe it's a wrong civ, maybe wrong opponents. Egypt with marble definitely didn't help. Stole almost all the wonders including HG and HS+PT. I've manage to catch up after grabbing Thebes, but getting there wasn't an easy ride.
I'll try this again with different civ and let you know.

I'm calling BS on this. There is no way you can get Great Library on any Immortal map. Hell, I've just tried with Egypt on 5 different maps, including some super awesome start locations and I only get 4-5 turns into building it before I hear the "bah" a civilization has built the Great Library sound. Unless you're hacking source code, I don't see this happening post patch.

The other tips are great. But I'm deeply suspicious of this claim. Sure you weren't playing Emperor?

I think mentioned 50% success on immortal is a very modest assessment. I would say it's doable 70%-80% of the time. Unless you're aiming for it with low production start. Then of course statistics goes down.

 

[RedRover57]

I can get it consistently on Deity in starts that have 6 forests. (for the chop) ~turn 32.

How often do you have 6 forests to chop in your capitol? That's basically saying you get the GL once in every 100 starts. I don't remember the last time I had 6 forest tiles in my capitol - maybe when I tried Iroquois or Aztecs with wet climate. Even if you have 6 forest tiles would you really want to chop them all just for the GL? Wouldn't that really hurt your production in the long run?

 

[Martin Alvito]

If you aggressively game the settings, you'll end up with six Forest tiles in the vicinity a lot more than one in one hundred games.

Whether or not chopping the Forests is bad depends entirely upon the dirt you get. If you're chopping a bunch of Hill and River tiles, you may well be gaining in the long term. If not, chopping does come back to haunt you but may be worthwhile depending on what you chop.

 

[Infiltrator]

Are you guys always playing without ruins? Because I get beaten by this even when I go HARD for GL, chopping 4-5 forests (I play with ruins).

 

[Martin Alvito]

I usually play with them on, and only turn them off if I go into a Deity game with the intent to build an early Wonder.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Are you guys always playing without ruins? Because I get beaten by this even when I go HARD for GL, chopping 4-5 forests (I play with ruins).

Sometimes you just run out of luck. But since it's doable on immortal and standard map size there is no real need to turn ruins off. I never did.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

Maybe it's a wrong civ, maybe wrong opponents. Egypt with marble definitely didn't help. Stole almost all the wonders including HG and HS+PT. I've manage to catch up after grabbing Thebes, but getting there wasn't an easy ride.
I'll try this again with different civ and let you know.

Getting the HG is one of the keys to this strat, no doubt, and generally having the ability to spam a few wonders in your capital on the way to Machinery is very important. A super-wonder-spamming AI obviously is the achilles heel here, and it sounds like that's exactly what you ran into.

I've been able to get the HG pretty consistently with this strat, but not getting it may well be grounds for an immediate change of tactics, because heavy growth in the capital is necessary to make the whole thing work. Anyway, as I said in the opening post, this is not a strat for horse-focused civs, and Russia falls at least partially into that category.

 

[wcbarney]

I've played one game on immortal and got soundly beaten attempting this strategy. I built the GL though.

Have won a couple of games on immortal, maybe not beelining this strategy, but employing it along with others. I usually manage to build the GL, but usually lose out on the HG. My last two games (Siam, and then America) I researched archery at the get-go & then built the Temple of Artemus -- not as good as HG, but is OK. While it was building I got the writing & masonry techs; and then got the GL + the Pyramids one after the other.

PS: I'm playing Siam & America 'cause I won several immortals in a row as Korea and it just got to be too easy.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Getting the HG is one of the keys to this strat, no doubt, and generally having the ability to spam a few wonders in your capital on the way to Machinery is very important. A super-wonder-spamming AI obviously is the achilles heel here, and it sounds like that's exactly what you ran into.

Do you think that was what I ran into?

Spoiler :

Damn Ramesses for not being closer to my borders. Getting there took a long time.

IMO, any wonder based strategy is risky on higher difficulties. Usually I tend to skip on most of them and go hard only for HS+PT. Maybe GL if starting location is reasonable. All the rest are sort of bonus and depend on circumstances.

I've been able to get the HG pretty consistently with this strat, but not getting it may well be grounds for an immediate change of tactics, because heavy growth in the capital is necessary to make the whole thing work. Anyway, as I said in the opening post, this is not a strat for horse-focused civs, and Russia falls at least partially into that category.

Arguable. Cossacks aren't even half as strong as they were in Civ4 and in general I just dislike cavalry in Civ5. Barely use it. Who cares about horses when artillery is behind the corner?

I hoped russian production bonus can push boundaries even further. But maybe on the contrary because Russia already is so strong production-wise it didn't feel extraordinary. And no units worth immediate spamming afterwards. It wasn't bad. Just regular. Tomorrow I'll try it again with Japan.

 

[qemist]

I hoped russian production bonus can push boundaries even further. But maybe on the contrary because Russia already is so strong production-wise it didn't feel extraordinary. And no units worth immediate spamming afterwards. It wasn't bad. Just regular. Tomorrow I'll try it again with Japan.

China seems a natural fit for IIB because of the crossbow bonus.

 

[peddroelm]

Why is nobody mentioning Hiawatha and the iroqois ?

early Mohawks[iron free], lumber-mills, long-houses and IronWorks on top of that ?
The focus switched to warrior-Mohawks rather than archers-crossbows that have hard time with lines of fire on heavy forested areas ...

 

[qemist]

Tried it with China on Emp . Flat, coastal tundra start. Scout died. Free settler got stolen by barbs. Will shortly declare victory.

Conclusion: I need to move up from Emp.

 

[The Pilgrim]

China seems a natural fit for IIB because of the crossbow bonus.

Obviously. But I played China two games ago. It's a natural rotation. Besides, China doesn't even need this kind of a boost. Archers are cheap and chu-ko-nu's are fierce. Beeline Machinery and off you go.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

After experimenting with this tactic a bit under several different starting positions, my revised thoughts:

- I represented incorrectly the use of this tactic in the OP. In situations in which you have a lot of room to grow and good city locations, you are better off simply expanding normally to the standard (or at least my standard) 4-5 base cities and going for Education and the wonders there first. That is, the very standard strategy seems to put you in the best position if you have the luck of little early geographic pressure. I've tested, on a map with plenty of free space, where my empire was sitting after 120 turns of normal expansion and with an IIB strategy, and I believe normal expansion to be the preferable route in that scenario.

- the usefulness of this strategy is actually exactly the opposite of my claims in the OP. This strategy works great in starting situations much like the one Mazer described in his game with the Ottomans - that is, where you are boxed in by rival civs or generally have poor real estate for additional cities. The IIB strategy is essentially a deferred expansion through military conquest strat, and seems to work best when normal expansion is impossible or undesirable (due to crappy land). Indeed, in geographically challenged scenarios, it may well be the dominant strat for the civs which can really benefit from it (the ones with appropriate UUs).

- the Hanging Gardens is the first key to this strategy, and it is only through acquisition of this wonder that your empire is able to stay scientifically level with or slightly ahead of the AIs. Basically, population in the capital counts for a whole lot more scientifically than population in smaller cities because of the Library/Nat College effect.

The science value of 1 pop in a small city without a library: 1
The science value of 1 pop in a capital with a library and NC: 2.25

It is because of this that the Hanging Gardens allows you to keep up scientifically, and getting that wonder is absolutely crucial to this strat. Without normal expansion, if you don't get a monster capital, you're toast.

- with that in mind, the tech progression should clearly be:

Pottery
Writing
Mining
Philosophy (free from GL, in theory)
Archery
Animal Husbandry
The Wheel
Mathematics
...with probably Bronze/Ironworking next (*it may be worth it to throw in Masonry if you've got marble and/or a lot of stone*)

Construction should begin on the HG as soon as Mathematics is researched. I find that with the above tech progression I get the HG about 90% of the time if my production is good. Mathematics is a 3rd level tech and there are more possibilities for where the AI can go at that point, and therefore somewhat less competition than for the first round of wonders. Anyway, if you miss the HG, you need to change tactics immediately.

- the second key to this strat is having a strong melee/ranged unit that can be spammed once the Ironworks goes up, because you're going to have a window in which your military productive capacity is going to be really large relative to the AI, and you need to use that window to roll up a couple of neighbors and expand. Civs that rely heavily on mounted units will probably find that this strat interferes too much with their chivalry beelines, and civs that have no timely units to take advantage of the Ironworks will be somewhat disappointed with the results.

- this strat may be something approaching optimal under the conditions described above (decent production, geographically cramped, civ with appropriate units), but it seems to be a situational strat useful for a few civs to "make a breakout" of a tight starting spot, rather than an overall über strat that everyone should implement post haste.

- in multiplayer, if the starting position/civ played are appropriate, foregoing the struggle for the GL and teching directly to mathematics (so AH, Mining, Archery, TW, Mathematics) and immediately constructing the HG is probably the way to make this strat work. Unless someone else is beelining the HG (which I don't think anyone really does at this point), it will probably work, at which point one can either go straight to warmongering --> Ironworking, etc. or go back to Pottery-Writing-Philosophy.

 

[ixevix]

Hi,

I just wanted to thank you for posting this strat and share that it works very well on Prince level.

I just finished a Cultural Victory with England on Prince. I was ahead in points all the time after the first expansion wave. It was really cool how many wonders you can build with this strat.

The AI's were DOW:ing me all over but it was really easy to fend them off with longbows and swordsmen. My empire grew to be very big. I think about 10 cities, some of them puppets. Also, settling aggressively towards the AI netted me room to expand for at least 3 more cities after the IW was up.

 

[qemist]

Seems to be working for me in my second Immortal game as China (continents, evrything standard). Failed to get GLb or HG or PT. Actually once I got past the initial rushes it doesn't feel much harder than Emp. Shouldn't count my chickens yet, though.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

After a bit more experimenting, a couple more thoughts:

After researching Mathematics and constructing the HG (should you be so lucky), the best play seems to be going Masonry - Construction - Engineering and immediately building an aqueduct in the capital, for reasons which should be painfully obvious. With the HG and then a straight beeline to aqueduct, growth in the capital is really explosive, like almost to the point that one worker is not enough.

After engineering...well, you're most of the way through the Machinery beeline, and I believe the best play is to forgo theocracy (for the HS) or Civil Service and go straight to Bronze Working (build a barracks in both cities immediately), Iron Working (build a Heroic Epic in the cap), Metal Casting (workshops in both cities) and then finally Machinery, and the big payoff.

I don't think there's a more optimized progression than the above for achieving results with this strategy.

edit: depending on how much production you've got in the 2nd city, researching Bronze Working before teching to Engineering may be necessary in order to get the barracks there completed in a timely manner so that the cap can have a Heroic Epic up before it's time to go workshop - Ironworks. Of course, buildings can also be bought, but pre-Medieval buildings are a poor use of gold (20% buyers premium) and at any rate, extra gold should probably be spent on Archers (to make up for lack of military production in the meantime), CSs and RAs.

 

[qemist]

After a bit more experimenting, a couple more thoughts:

After researching Mathematics and constructing the HG (should you be so lucky),

That seems like something of a flaw in the strategy. If getting the HG is unlikely it may not be best to build the strategy around the assumption that you'll get it.

the best play seems to be going Masonry - Construction - Engineering and immediately building an aqueduct in the capital, for reasons which should be painfully obvious. With the HG and then a straight beeline to aqueduct, growth in the capital is really explosive, like almost to the point that one worker is not enough.

If you have a masonry rich start would you consider doing masonry earlier? say you had access to two marble and no mining luxuries.

After engineering...well, you're most of the way through the Machinery beeline, and I believe the best play is to forgo theocracy (for the HS) or Civil Service and go straight to Bronze Working (build a barracks in both cities immediately), Iron Working (build a Heroic Epic in the cap), Metal Casting (workshops in both cities) and then finally Machinery, and the big payoff.

Would you have the w/s finished by the time you complete Machinery? so far I've been aiming for Metal Casting a lot earlier.