Immortal University 109 - Mao

[Gumbolt]

Just for fun I tried something for Lafunk.

Spoiler :

Built 2 cities. 2nd city between copper and pigs.

Built 10 axes. All city raider 1 promo. Went to attack Spanish capital around 1560bc. It had 7 defenders and 60% defences. Shrine and SH. I lost all 10 units. Didn't kill a single defender. Maybe I was unlucky to find 7 defenders. Also a bad idea to pick a war monger like Isabela.

Overall it was destined to fail from the start even with reasonable planning. The distance of the copper/pigs city also slowed down my research a bit.

Arabians might of been a better target albeit CG1/2 archers. Axe rushes on Immortal are by no means a great choice. Firstly because the Ai will whip units most turns. Also they have much more roaming units. This is perhaps why players choose HA over axes in most games on higher levels. Or wait for catapults to make attacks easier.

Axe rushes would of worked better on AI like Indians who build very few units.

 

[NihilZero]

@ Gumbolt:

Spoiler :

A screenshot from my game:

Played a few days ago. I lucked out a bit - my first warrior found a worker mining the gems, so I took him. Made peace, came back and took another worker! These workers helped chop out axes in time for my third DoW. Rest in peace, Isa.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Nihil

Spoiler :

I was doing it just to show Lafunk. I could of tried to worker steal from Izzy early on. Sometimes these can backfire if they spam archers. I think her not building SH and not hooking up copper would of made your job easier. She had an extra border pop on my save. Mean't 3 turns to reach her capital. 4 to attack it.

In any case real strategy should never involve luck.

I would of never attacked the city with 7 defenders on a proper play through. I knew the attack was doomed. Scouting the Ai is very important before rushes. Ooops.

I will continue my actual game later.

 

[LaFunk]

@ Gumbolt + Nihil

Spoiler :

Nice to see that it CAN be done, how many defenders did she have when you got there? I'm thinking now that axe rushing this level of difficulty means you have to steal a worker or two just to slow down unit production for the AI.

I'm about to go make a game for the forum, I'll come back tomorrow to check the replies on it.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ lafunk

Spoiler :

My rush failed!!!

Make no mistake an axe rush on this level is not the best play.

Looking forard to your forum game!

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 100ad.

Spoiler :

Okay choice of taking techs off Arabians or wiping them out. Chose to wipe them out. CKN rolled over 1 Ai.

My big issue now is I can't bulb engineering as I have fishing! Ooops.

So I had a stack of 10 CKN. Persians had spammed cities on my borders. Although very poor land really. Persians have a lot of large cities but very few improvements.

Now was a good time to attack. I used 10 CKN and took 2 border cities. Lost 2 CKN overall on 20% defended cities. He retaliated by trying to recapture one of the cities defended by 2 CKN. His HA sword and axe all died.

I have 2 other mini stacks still returning from the Arabian war. I have 16 CKN overall. Plus a few spears, 2 sword and an axe. I could really use construction soon.

Some bad news is on the Horizon. Gilga is in war mode. Not sure who the target is but Unless he crosses entire map to attack Willem I am probably the target. Most Ai are pleased with him but he attacks at pleased. See what happens.

Up to 275ad.

Spoiler :

Still no feudalism anywhere on map. Heading towards Persians capital. Need to heal stack after taking 3rd city. He is down to 6 but has phants. Lost 2 units on his 3rd city. 3 turns off CS but I lack the gold to do this.

 

[blunderwonder]

Nihil, is this one of those maps thats big on a tiny plot or whatever, i noticed my maintanaince was at like 10 in all my cities, I had like 10 or 11 at that point maybe, but it felt high to me even before that. I may have spread them out a bit too far, but i usually try to keep distance maintance at zero if i can, like within 4 squares outward or 3x3, and never more than 8 squares straight away.

This map was difficult for commerce from the start though, Im gonna give this engineering rush stuff another try on that old ghandi map, I think i could have played it better, shocked to see how viable it is, even up to gunpowder, the only thing that really seems to slow down trebs are those protective longbows in wall/castle cities, takes like 20X bombard promoted to get it down to zero in a turn, its the 2% odd treb attacks that really screw it up when you have to suicide 1/2 your seige to take a city. Its great though as every city is usually size 8+, gives great capture gold, has most of the right buildings, especially in the capitals. And i think after reducing a stack and having tons of units left, they cap quicker.. Might start paying more mind to this medieval war Oo

 

[FlyingSwan]

@gumbolt

Spoiler :

Giggles will have to go through Isabella borders,im not sure what the religious situation is but using spys you might be able to cause some friction and get one or the other to sign a trade embargo,with no open borders he wont be able to reach you.

 

[blunderwonder]

@lafunk, I have tried axe rushes many times, and they usually fail for me , its one of those really risky rushes. Even with an agressive leader, where you can get combat1/cover axes out of the gate, your odds are only like 30ish% against 20%culture archers, and if they also have axes your in trouble. That said.. if its ghandi, or someone VERY close by, if you have bronze in your bfc or in your 2nd city, its doable, and can be a very good play even if it slows you down for awhile, you just need more of them. There are plenty of games though were it may be just as good a play to scout out there land, if they dont have metal hooked up, and you tech IW yourself or beeline then trade alpha for it CR swords have much better odds against archers than axes. Its just one of those jump point things, at full health your unit either has a >60% chance of winning, or a <40% chance, the first is reasonable, the 2nd not so much..

Ive watched replays where people steal 10 workers and really screw with an AI, ive never been able to do it cause i cant ever seem to get woodsman2, and if i do manage it, they dont have any forests lol.

 

[NihilZero]

Axe rush is a questionable play probably 9 times out of ten on immortal. Part of the fascination of civ, and one of the reasons I'm still playing it after so many years, is that sometimes things that perhaps shouldn't work, do work.

My opinion these days is that a worker steal (or two) can seriously cripple an AI and really improve your chances of a risky play like axe warfare. I used to think the opposite - that worker stealing simply put the AI into unit spamming mode.

Also, worker stealing gives you such an edge in early development that you can get a rush off sooner than is possible without some slave labour.

Nihil, is this one of those maps thats big on a tiny plot or whatever, i noticed my maintanaince was at like 10 in all my cities, I had like 10 or 11 at that point maybe

Maintenance is higher than usual on pangaea maps, because the map grid is small compared to other standard sizes. It generally evens out, sort of, because there is a lot less land available and hence fewer cities, but you really notice the maintenance hitting hard once you get more than say 8 cities. The last forum game I played (the Ragnar map that Doshin posted) was a fractal and I managed without courthouses for a long time in a way that would be impossible on a pangaea.

 

[NihilZero]

Finally got a little bit of free time to post my writeup.

Part I: BCs:

Spoiler :

As luck would have it, I sent my first warrior east. This guy soon stumbled upon two interesting things: Isa's gems and Isa's worker. Naturally I wanted these things, so I grabbed the worker there and then (DoW in 3560BC) and started hatching a plan to get Madrid too. I sent my warrior a bit closer to spy out the scene and sure enough there was a second gem tile, and tons of food and riverside.

A ceasefire soon followed (I teched BW first so the power boost no doubt helped). Isa tried again to improve her gems when she had another worker - I took this one too, and got another ceasefire.

Tech path Wheel -> Pottery -> AH.

Settled by the pigs and copper, and my stolen workers chopped axemen into existence. Attacked in 1880BC with about ten axes. She was dead in 1560. Razed her second city as all it had were calendar resources.

Spoiler :

In the above screen you can also see a pair of workers roading towards my future HE site - wheat, cows, copper, elephants, and a settler getting ready to head down there ASAP.

Kills and losses in the Spanish war:

Spoiler :

I killed 9 archers total, but at least one of those was a barb, and I managed to catch one or two of Isa's in the open when they foolishly ventured out.

Unfortunately I never got a tasty shrine out of the deal, but Madrid was awesome anyway. The only downside to my aggressive play was that Charlie hated me (-3 diplo from repeatedly DoWing Isa) and I was his worst enemy.

Next I built the Oracle for the obvious Metal Casting in 975BC.

I got a scientist at 70% odds for the machinery bulb:

Spoiler :

Next job was to tech Literature for the HE, which I had manage to unlock with some barb hunting. I captured a barb city which was too far away to be of any use, so I gifted it to Gilgamesh to get my first Pleased AI.

The HE city was pretty good.

Spoiler :

I was now pumping out units pretty fast, but it wasn't clear who I should attack. The obvious choice was Charlie as he hated my guts and nobody liked him as he was religiously isolated. However, this plan went down the tubes as he teched Feudalism and it seemed like an easier target would be preferable for my Cho-Ko-Nus.

More to follow...

 

[Gumbolt]

Update 540ad . @ Flying swan too.

Spoiler :

So I take construction and HBR for peace with Cyrus. Who promptly vassels to Gilga with 4 cities left. Cyrus had no main land cities left. Island cities somewhere. His capital and other cities look nice. Lots of sea resources and lots of happiness resources.

Gilga has just declared on izzy. He has a 12 strong stack with 2 catapults. Izzy has castles and longbows. Gilga will but try but could be here all year. I was planning to attack Willem next as he still lacks Feudalism. No need to close borders here. Hopefully the war will slow them down.

Techwise Izzy has engineering, theo and feud.

Willem probably has aesth, lit and music.

HRE has compass, philosophy and feudalism on me. I really could use some GS at some point.

I have CS that most need but not much else. Keep the war going I guess.

Up to 800ad.

Spoiler :

Took 4 cities of Willem and he capitulated and offered music. Finally some trade bait.

Gilga is nearly 50% done bombarding his first target. Isabella has 22 units in her city. If I can get enough trebs I may well declare on her soon.#

I am 34% short on land to win. I may well need to cap all the remaining Ai on map. Hopefully I can keep this war rolling on.

Up to 880ad.

Spoiler :

Gilga finally takes down Barcelona's defences then suicides his stack. The Spanish still have 18 units left. Gilga has a stack of 7-8 east of barca that have not moved since it arrived. Fact If you attack a city with 22 defenders you normally need a lot more attackers.

up to 1020ad.

Spoiler :

I switched to Vassalage civic to get 5 xp trebs. 18 or so cities and I am whipping units in most cities. 5xp trebs with bombard bonus are pretty sweet. CKn to mop up afterwards. 6-8 first strikes on my top units.

So I ready a stack of about 40-50 units. Initially 30 or so but about 20 units followed through to attack Spanish. I had overall about 12-14 trebs, 16 CKN some mace, phants and other weaker units. Spain had about 12-13 units defending the city with about 7-8 waiting outside city. Took 2 turns to reduce his castle defences. Reduced city to 1 defender and let his follow up units enter the city. Following turn took his city. I lost 2 trebs.

After that with 4 cities she threw in the towel. Gilga and HRE left to roll over. Oh and Persians but shouldn' really be needed. Gilga has knights but spent his stack on Spanish. Spanish cities are a nice buffer. Will play on tomorrow.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@gumbolt,can any of your vassals get guilds?maybe you could swoop in with Knights when

Spoiler :

giggles

has stopped messing about...

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Flying Swan -

Spoiler :

Probably use phants to defend the stack. See how I do. I am some way off cuirs. I am hoping numbers will matter here. Minor issue is Gilga has a vassel who may not capitulate.

 

[shpeka]

A quick question:

Spoiler :

In my game Isabella declared on me while being at war with Gilgamesh (200AD). Is this even possible?

Other than that the game is shaping up pretty nicely.

 

[NihilZero]

Part II 1AD - 660AD

Spoiler :

I got a decent army together, but rather annoyingly by 100AD everybody had Feudalism. Well...everybody except Cyrus. I had been deterred from attacking him by the thought that Immortals would be a pain for CKNs, but really he was the obvious choice since he had spammed jungle cities all around my capital and failed to make these very productive. There was still a lot of uncleared jungle around. Therefore I could snatch some vulnerable cities without traveling very far at all, which would give my troops something to do while I waited for the Engineering bulb.

While I was attacking Persia I got my GS:

Spoiler :

I capped Cyrus with CKNs, Catapults, and War elephants. Pults were used only for bombardment, I didn&#8217;t need to attack with them as the CKNs absolutely ate all the archers and melee units. He capitulated after losing four cities and I took negligible losses. So negligible, in fact, that I saw that I could afford to settle my first GG rather than make a medic, allowing me to mass build CRII trebuchets.

Spoiler :

By now the economy was pretty shambolic, but I had at least got CoL and started to whip courthouses.

Before I switched to Bureau (Madrid would ultimately be the capital) I used the Music Artist for a GA, during which I ran Vassalage for five turns so I could get even more 5xp Trebuchets.

Willem was next.

Spoiler :

It didn't take too long to subdue him. I'll most likely give him back most of the captured cities as the economy is still shaky and I don't think they'll help me at all.

Spoiler :

As you might have seen in the screenshots, Saladin looks like he'll get Lib soon. He's one turn from Education and has Philosophy already. I probably can't get there in time to stop him, but I can try...

Most remarkable thing about the game so far: my kill-loss ratio. I lost barely any units conquering Cyrus and Willem.

Spoiler :

It can't last, of course, since the remaining three AIs are Protective and have reasonable unit prob.

Empire as it stands now:

Spoiler :

Wonders; they really went late in this game. Pyramids at 50BC! I even got the MoM after starting it for fail gold and then realising I could whip it.

Spoiler :

@ Shpeka:
An AI can sometimes declare/plot war while already at war if you refuse a demand. Sometimes they can even DoW on the very same turn as the refusal!

 

[FlyingSwan]

just to be clear on the engineering bulb.You have to avoid fishing so you don't go down the sailing path,and you avoid meditation so you don't bulb philosophy.correct?

So when your going for ENG bulb would it be wise to run an engineer specialist as well as scientists?If I remember right(from an Isabella NC game where we start with stone)the engineer doesn't bulb it outright,does the scientist?

 

[Gumbolt]

Engineers are not great bulbers. GS would get at least 1500 plus 3x number of pop you have or something like that.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@gumbolt,yes I agree,but for that NC Isabella game you have no choice if you want early engineering as she starts with fishing,If I recall correctly in that game I got ENG about 1AD.So I guess what your saying is run 2 scientists rather than a scientist and an engineer.But surely if you can run 2 scientist AND an engineer that's got to be worth doing if the ENG rush is the goal.

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 1100ad.

Spoiler :

Took 3 turns to move my relatively uninjured stack towards Gilga and has his vassel who had his capital near Willem.

Attacked Gilga with 2 stacks about 30 and 25 units each. After 3 turns of bombarding both cities fell one with the help of a useful 10-14 strong Spanish stack that took out most of his defenders in one city.

On the move towards HRE now. He has no real stack. I will hammer him with 2 decent size stacks.

Persians are a minor headache now. 3 cities left all on island but he has caravels. I have no answer to these yet. I am way behind on tech here. Most Ai have edu and 4-5 other techs on me.