Implications of Early Game Eureka Patterns for Build Orders

[Big J Money]

From reading these forums, I don't think it's just me but... I've never had a game where I was researching writing before meeting any other civs, aside from island starts.

Note that I always play with recommended number of civs for map size, so a standard amount of space between civs.

So I guess the above Eurekas are going to be only meaningful to island starts. Which let's be honest, really just means that civs starting alone on islands will be a bit behind on Writing and Foreign Trade. Again, there's no strategic choice for the player unless beelining for a trireme is a legit island opening.

Edit: Also I'm talking about strategic choice for the player. You make it sound as if meeting another civ is a choice, but it's not. If you're scouting to find territory and goodie huts, then you will run into other civs if they're around. There's no way to do one without the other.

 

[Vaclac]

I agree it's not a choice, but eurekas could theoretically function as a balance to some things that are random. I agree in Civ V it was very rare not to run into civs early, except on island maps, but I recall it happening from time to time in Civ IV where I would get a whole continent to myself. In that case, the advantage of not having to worry about grabbing land or defending yourself was offset by the inability to trade techs early if you found yourself in that situation. Also, this type of hedging against random disadvantages does not appear to be their actual design philosophy as some of the random things you get eureka bonuses for doing, like discovering a natural wonder are already positives anyway.

 

[Big J Money]

Honestly, I can't tell that that there is a design philosophy behind the exploration Eurekas, except maybe "make the first few easy so that players can understand how they work".

Sadly that design will affect every game of Civ VI, not just the first one.

But it's not a big deal, just kind of annoying to me.

 

[zobra]

Honestly, I can't tell that that there is a design philosophy behind the exploration Eurekas, except maybe "make the first few easy so that players can understand how they work".

Sadly that design will affect every game of Civ VI, not just the first one.

But it's not a big deal, just kind of annoying to me.

I feel you.

You don't have to be researching the tech at the same time you trigger the eureka to get the bonus right? If you don't you should of course try triggering all eurekas as i can see no downside to it.

Is the rule that only one civ may trigger a eureka? Otherwise it seems kind of no question.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Why even have these Eurekas? They offer no strategic decision to the player.

Exploration eurekas do 2 things:

1. They encourage exploration.

2. As being partially random, they are kind of tech tree randomizers. You may want to adopt your strategy depending on whether you found the needed thing or not. Or, as with other eurekas, you could ignore this.

 

[zobra]

Exploration eurekas do 2 things:

1. They encourage exploration.

2. As being partially random, they are kind of tech tree randomizers. You may want to adopt your strategy depending on whether you found the needed thing or not. Or, as with other eurekas, you could ignore this.

But why would you NOT want to go for a eureka if you can trigger it? I think thats the lack of strategic decision Big J is asking, including myself.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

But why would you NOT want to go for a eureka if you can trigger it? I think thats the lack of strategic decision Big J is asking, including myself.

You want the Eureka unless....
-You already have the tech
Or
-the Eureka is too hard to get before you get the tech.

So if you want fast religion, you pump out scouts to get the Natura Wonder Astrology Eureka, but that means you may not get a Builder for the State Workforce Eureka in time.

 

[happybjorn]

On an islands map someone is likely to start on a coast and get the sailing eureka. If you have such a strong bias against water tiles that you move your starting settler away from the coast (or otherwise avoid it), that is your choice. Someone else can still come and meet you. You might still be behind on Foreign Trade, but probably not for Writing.

 

[zobra]

You want the Eureka unless....
-You already have the tech
Or
-the Eureka is too hard to get before you get the tech.

So if you want fast religion, you pump out scouts to get the Natura Wonder Astrology Eureka, but that means you may not get a Builder for the State Workforce Eureka in time.

Thank you. I see, the decision lies in the timing of the build order itself.

So you probably want to plan according for your civ. As Harald i would of course aim for that coast eureka so i can start building longships ASAP. Then if i manage to trigger a eureka i have no interest in for my plan it's just a happy bonus.

 

[Ornen]

On an islands map someone is likely to start on a coast and get the sailing eureka. If you have such a strong bias against water tiles that you move your starting settler away from the coast (or otherwise avoid it), that is your choice. Someone else can still come and meet you. You might still be behind on Foreign Trade, but probably not for Writing.

Right – if you spawn on an island, the Eureka bonus for coast cuts sailing down to entry tech times, making it immediately viable. That way you can get a galley out and maybe catch that writing eureka before it finishes.

But again, you're not supposed to get every eureka.

 

[stealth_nsk]

But why would you NOT want to go for a eureka if you can trigger it? I think thats the lack of strategic decision Big J is asking, including myself.

Strategic decisions related to exploration eurekas:

1. How many efforts to put in exploration (building additional scout and/or sending military unit)? The more you need those eurekas in your plans, the more you want to do it.

2. Whether to research those techs earlier if you've gotten the eureka earlier. You may want to change your plans and go Writing early if you meet another civ at the start of the game.

3. Whether to postpone researching the techs if you didn't get the eureka in time. If you still have land to explore you may want to wait with the tech, or research it anyway without the eureka.

 

[Nick31]

But why would you NOT want to go for a eureka if you can trigger it? I think thats the lack of strategic decision Big J is asking, including myself.

You know, it's pretty funny that we have this argument: Only follow Eurekas to maximize early science efficiency.

But on the other, we have multiple players up top who were adamant that you had to go unit-strong in your opening builds, regardless of Eurekas. You'll hit the unit eurekas, and the exploration ones, but probably be slow on some of the Empire ones.

I think the devs have an interesting idea with these Eurekas. Maybe they end up being tweaked in a patch or by modders, but I'm guessing a lot of players aren't going to follow the connect the dots to a T, and I even think that "optimal" Immortal or Diety players will fudge it, as well.

As for what we all do the first handful of times that we play? Well, I agree that at the moment, and particularly from watching the best Summer Let's Play (Marbozir's), anticipating the Eurekas seems the best strategy. But we'll see.

 

[isau]

But on the other, we have multiple players up top who were adamant that you had to go unit-strong in your opening builds, regardless of Eurekas. You'll hit the unit eurekas, and the exploration ones, but probably be slow on some of the Empire ones.

Those posts were in regards to the Aztecs, who get Builders from using their Eagle Warriors to kill things. That is why those posts dealt primarily with unit-strong openings. It's an Aztec speciality, and the clock is ticking before the Eagle Warrior becomes obsolete.

The Aztecs can go unit-strong and clean house on Eurekas because they can satisfy so many without actually building Builders themselves.

 

[Nick31]

Those posts were in regards to the Aztecs, who get Builders from using their Eagle Warriors to kill things. That is why those posts dealt primarily with unit-strong openings. It's an Aztec speciality, and the clock is ticking before the Eagle Warrior becomes obsolete.

The Aztecs can go unit-strong and clean house on Eurekas because they can satisfy so many without actually building Builders themselves.

As I responded to them, good luck getting your builders fast enough to take advantage of the improvement-focused Eurekas if you chasing around foreign units several tiles away from your capital. New movement penalties will not make that easy.

 

[zobra]

I have a hard time finding an answer to this question, is the eurekas a one time per civ in a game thing? Or can every civ in the game trigger the same eureka?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I have a hard time finding an answer to this question, is the eurekas a one time per civ in a game thing? Or can every civ in the game trigger the same eureka?

Every civ has its own eurekas.

 

[dturtle1]

I feel some Eureka's Like "Early Empire" you will want to time it to get the benefit. Early Empire in this case give you Cheap settlers, but can you really wait till 6 pop before you start pumping out settlers? Pretty sure Rome aint waiting that long . What you can do is Hard Research it and time your growth so it gets the Eureka before halfway. This will allow you get the Bonus right on or close to Pop 6, rather than Pop 6 + X turns. I think with some Eurekas, it will be important to get the Eureka at the end of the Research, rather than get the Eureka and then Research it.

 

[Plus Ultra]

(Free) Warrior
(1)Scout
(2)Worker
(3)Scout
(4)Slinger
(5)Slinger
(6)Monument
(7)Settler
(8)District

-You need two Scouts as soon as possible. Eurekas, Envoys, Good huts, Natural Wonders, Second City placement. Exception: Island maps.
-You most certainly need a worker to boost your City before you start producing stuff like crazy.
-Two Slingers. Eurekas, Barbarians, Early promotions, City defense until Encampments.
-Monument. Can't wait any longer Mate.
-Settler. Can't wait any longer either.
-District. Time to start paying atention to your capital.

Pure speculation, but that's what I'll be trying first.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think delaying your monument this much will hurt your civic game a lot. You want to get two policies faster than that. And I think you're in Civ5 mode when it comes to units. Remember that slinger is a support and so can stack with a warrior. If you're using those units for fighting rather than exploring, I think its much stronger to stack them.

Slinger is not support, it is a normal unit (support units have str 0, they are civilian units)

 

[BrokenBokken]

Yeah. Slingers are normal units. I like that build order but I would probably put the monument before the Slingers unless I felt a high presence of barbarians.