IMPORTANT Commerce Discussion: Of Philosophy and warrior upgrade gambits

[Octavian X]

Here's the dilemma folks - We're working at two very, very different goals.

For one, beginning-of-term tech policy called for us to research Philosophy in order to recieve the free tech that is granted by researching it first. Now, another civ has recently discovered writing, meaning that we will likely have to devote a good deal of our income in order to achieve this goal.

Under normal circumstances, this is not a problem - I would even advocate researching with our full resources to finish the project.

However, we are also gearing up for war - either with the Netherlands or the Indians. These is do the fact that Fanatannia has started life in corner, and are blocked by these two AIs. War in the ancient age is inevitable. In order to prepare for war, it has been suggested that we amass a large warrior force and upgrade them en masse.

There's the rub - Both upgrades and tech research COST MONEY. Lots of money.

Warrior upgrades cost 80g a piece (I think - somoene may need to correct me). We can currently afford a grand total of three upgrades, and thus need every coin possible to upgrade enough warriors (from figures I've seen, around 8 or 10) to make a viable invasion force. In order to afford these costs, we'd have to max out our gpt, at the cost of research.

Of course, to have a chance at making the Philo gambit, we'd have to devote a lot of our resources to research, which doesn't add to our treasury. This would last around 20 turns, using some approximations with TechCalc. In 20 turns, we could also generate about 120g, crucial money for warrior upgrades.

We need to decide now - do we abandon the Philo gambit to raise more money for warrior upgrades, or do we continue the Philo gambit and fight a war without upgraded warriors?

 

[Ulyaoth]

I'm for upgrading the warriors. Philosophy gamble will help for a while, possibly give us the tech edge for a bit, but we'll do it at the cost of being locked into a corner of the map with 3 cities surrounded by extremely powerful civs that'll just be dying to invade us.

 

[GenMarshall]

I am for the warrior -> swords upgrades so long as it does not break our account in the process. (I heard that its expensive to upgrade in C3C . )

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

We must go warrior -> sword path. There is no other viable option, and winning the philo gambit (if we got lucky and did, with only three cities generating science) would only make us a bigger target to the AI

 

[Nobody]

i say the warrior way,

 

[mad-bax]

What everyone said.

Warrior-sword upgrade is 60g. With selling writing to China we can get their 170g. We can make another 10gpt for 15 turns and so we should be able to upgrade 7 or 8 swords, as long as we can build rax's and warriors in time.

 

[Ashburnham]

I agree with the majority. At this point, the benefits we gain from a free tech are far outweighed by the negetives incured from being surrounded by other nations. I'm afraid it's time to put down the pen and pick up the sword.

 

[YNCS]

We have no choice. We're blocked in by India and the Netherlands and we have to conquer one (or both) of them to expand. We can't do that with warriors.

 

[MOTH]

I agree as well, we need the cash for warrior upgrades.

The question then becomes what should we start researching in 1 turn?

Should we continue a min-science run, or zero science, or something higher?

Should we continue with Philo in the 1% chance that we can win it on less than max science or should we switch to something else?

We will soon have 5 cities and our science output will rise some as we take some time to build barracks in our first cities. We will also be able to play tech broker for the rest of the middle ages in all likelyhood until contacts are made everywhere. I doubt that an 10% science run will get us any tech first, but if we can research one of the less sought after techs we might get it on a 30% science run.

I propose that we begin researching Code Of Laws on whatever science level gets it to us in about 40 turns. We might be able to get this first and we might also be able to trade this for Philosophy and be able to start research on Republic.

 

[mad-bax]

For me... I would switch off science completely. Once math is known we can buy it or pointy stick it and then research currency. Currency is always the last AA tech to be learned. If we get that one first then we may have more options - like gifting a scientific civ into the MA.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

Well, then. It appears teh WOTP has moved against Philo.
I must ask, then. What do we research now, then? We have another tech up in 1 turn. What do we want to research if not Philo? Map Making on a small pangea with three other seafaring civs? My guess is that they'll have it within the next 20-30 turns, especially if we turn Writing for a profit. If not this, we should seriously consider something else. I am NOT requesting a 1 turn chat to get writing and see what we can trade for it, but it wouldnt hurt.. (perhaps Dave can play it like he did for the Wheel?)
Please discuss this matter. It is serious. We have the weapons techs, now if we want to use it, then lets do it.
And @mad-bax: lone scientist gambit? Could work.

 

[Bertie]

Our overall strategy is to achieve a cultural win. The Philosophy gambit was an entertaining tactical detour on the road to achieving our strategy, but certainly wasn’t an end unto itself. Had we plenty of land for expansion I have no doubt we’d be jacking up the research rate and making a good run at discovering Philosophy first. But we don’t; and if we wish to make achieve our overall goal, we’re going to need more land. This means war, so our tactics must be support this.

We’re doing well with our trading so I think we’ll be able to keep up in technology. I’d either research at a minimum or do the lone scientist. Math then currency seems like a sensible plan.

 

[LeeT911]

I too think that the Philosophy gambit won't work now. We need the money for upgrades so we can take some more land.

However, since we are going for a cultural win, I think we should go for Literature. It's an optional tech, so not as likely to be researched by anyone else, plus it gives us acess to libraries/Great Library (culture!). I know we can't spare a city to build the GL at this point, but maybe with a quick war...

 

[greekguy]

Give up on the Philo gambit. we need the money for upgrades for the upcoming war(s). also, someone else got writing before us, so we probably wouldn't even get Philo, even if we researched at the max.

 

[Icmancin]

Its unanimous. Abandon philo and go for our war funding.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

Then vote that in the flippin poll and dont make it a 6-6 split!

 

[blackheart]

Stick with Philo I say! Get a free advanced tech then sell it.

 

[Icmancin]

Then vote that in the flippin poll and dont make it a 6-6 split!

The flippin poll has been voted upon.

Odd how there is so much support here but a very close call in the 'flippin' poll.

 

[vikingruler]

Stick with Philo I say! Get a free advanced tech then sell it.

The odds are we won't get philo with another civ with writing they'll probably get it first. plus staying with philo goes aganist everyone has been saying. if we go for it, we won't have enough money to go to war and not going to war means we won't have enough land to get a cultural win. i say we go lit or code of laws and but the science rate enough to get it in 40 turns or so. we also need to sell writing to chinese for that much needed 170 g. with that and our already collected money we can get around 5 or 6 swords, plus with the gold increase more on the way. this plan will mean me get plenty of cash for upgrading, yet enough science to eventually get a tech.