Important Discussion

[Almightyjosh]

There are some things from this game that could carry over to the next. This is a discussion ahead of a poll (I hope) to determine what things could/should carry over.

These are the things I could think of:

LAWS
Constitution
Code of Laws
Code of Standards
- these could be carried over to save us having to write new ones. This does not mean that we couldn't change them substantially through the normal channels towards the end of this game!! Do we need to re-invent the wheel, or should we stick with our laws for the main part?

FEATURES
Demogame RPG
National Parks System
Apolyton Embassy
- these are features of this game that could be carried over, if not implemented immediately. Did they contribute to this game? If not, was it because they were not quite established, badly managed or just bad ideas?

TITLES
The Government
Citizen Honors
Census Officers
Geographical Officers
- These are national titles, both elected adn awarded, that could be carried over. Should we hold new elections or should we keep the current government for the first term? SHould citizens honors be reset and re-invented for our new game? Do we need to re-appoint the unelected positions (like the census officers) or can they stay as they are?

NAMES
Phionatica
The Province Names
City names
Honour names
-Do we need a new set of names or should we keep the ones we have for tradition's sake?

POSSIBLE CHANGES
Political Parties
Preselection of Candidates
- Are there any major changes that are needed for the new game?


Keep in mind whether you feel the new game should be a fresh slate, preserve the general framework of this one, or be simply an extention of the current one. All three have benefits!!

Thoughts??

 

[donsig]

I think there is much in the current game that can and should carry over into a new demo game but we need as much of a clean slate as possible. First of all we need a new name and new city names as well. (Well, maybe another PDX would be cool. )

I would not be so quick to carry over too much from this game. Even the constitution should be tweaked for the new game. I have already suggested that we do away with article K and make public turn chats optional. I have also suggested we define terms in terms of the game calendar instead of the real calender. (For instance, a term would be 60 game turns rather than a calender month.) I think we should allow political parties. I think we should try to encoourage more of the RPG. That idea didn't really start until this first game was about finished. We have a chance to get that going from the start now.

We must also realize that many of the rules we have may not make sense at the start of a new game. I like the park idea but that's really an industrial age concept, isn't it? We should also be aware that some things were poorly handled in the beginnings of this game. Mayors were an after thought. If we can manage to carry over the participation level we currently have I think there will be intense competition to be a mayor, especially of the capital city. First come, first serve may be a poor way of choosing mayors in the next game. Second, we have a very slow process for fixing provincial borders. Anyone familiar with Phoenatican history knows how we stumbled with our first attempts at defining provinces. We need a faster method for assigning cities to provinces in the early going especially if we hope to have governors throughout the game.

I think a new thing we should institute is local elections. Local elections might serve to distribute the demo game citizens throughout the nation while at the same time helping us to compile an accurate census.

Finally, we should not carry over the CoL and CoS! We should build our laws as we need them. We can always refer back to Phoenatica's CoL and CoS for guidance on particular issues but as a whole we should leave these on Phoenatica.

 

[Zur]

I defer with Donsig on CoL and CoS. I feel we should carry over as much as is generalizable, but also try to simplify them as much as possible. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. Demogame1 has done that for us.

 

[Shaitan]

I think the bulk of these items should be carried over. We have a highly developed system of laws. These have gone through several revisions to emerge as a cohesive and coordinated rule set. We can always alter or eliminate parts through normal channels (discussion, polling).

Names should not come over. Except perhaps "Phoenatica" itself. Honor titles are fine to come with us. The embassy with Aplyton should definitely continue. The demogame RPG should be just fine as a sidebar to the game (not required for a person to participate). The National Park System is fine as well. Yes, it's an Industrial Age thing but there's no requirement to actually create parks until we want to. It's always a supermajority decision in any case. If the supermajority wants a park in 4000 BC then let them have it.

Political parties - NO! We did just fine with them. Our friends in Apolytonia have told us how fractionalizing and disruptive they are. We need team building things. Parties will separate us into factions.

 

[donsig]

All right then Shaitan, let's make a deal. I'll give up political parties if you give up the CoL and CoS.

BTW, what about redefining the terms and making the turn chat optional? I'd really like the chance to vote for Shaitan for President...

 

[Cyc]

I pretty much agree with Shaitan here. I think Donsig is right about a new name. Phoenatica is now the classic standard to be met. Let's not drag its name down with repetitive play. Of course new city and Province names, and of course names can be duplicated if the namer so chooses.

As far as the constitution goes, remember that the US constitution was written by educated farmers over two and a quarter centuries ago, and it still works. If the basic premise of the document holds up, then slight modifications or a wider interpretation can allow it to work in a new game as well as a game in its final years.

I think honored citizens should end with each game. Bring a copy of the Hall of Fame over, but not the perks. Those citizens were honored in Demogame1. If they want to be Honored Citizens in Demogame2, let them earn it again.

I have no problem with defining terms by game turns, although the amount of turns in the begining will go quickly. This is a good thing as discussion in the begining of the game will be important. Plus it will give the freshman politicians a learning period with which to hone their skills. (The current term should carry over).

And I ADAMANTLY (ATOM ANT - like) oppose political parities.

 

[Shaitan]

Sorry, donsig. I can't give up the COL and COS. Too much has been invested in them for me to consider axing them out of hand. Parts, sure. Things can always be changed. But not the entire documents. They are a better starting point than a blank slate would be.

I have no specific objection to basing terms on game turns instead of the real calendar. There would have to be some changes in timing for when to start nominations and the election cycle but that shouldn't be too difficult to handle. Perhaps the early terms should be longer (more turns) than the later ones, like in the succession games.

Personally, I like the idea of optional turn chats. I'd like to be President some day

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
Personally, I like the idea of optional turn chats. I'd like to be President some day

I'd vote for you to be President just to see you have to operate under the CoL and CoS. I'm sorry, Shaitan. I know you put in a tremendous amount of effort into the CoL and CoS but because you did so much of the work you cannot see the flaws. And changing them is not so easy either. Look at what we ran into when we tried to create deputy governors. Needed changes in the CoL and CoS, which use two different methods, etc. Now in order to consider making turn chats optional or to change how we define a term we've got to not only change the constitution, but the CoL and CoS as well! Three different types of changes for one idea! Our government is unwieldy!

I am sure that even if we do leave the CoL and CoS behind in the next game most of these two documents will be ressurected in the second game. I still think we should bring the needed parts in a bit at a time as the need for them arises. This will allow us to enact the good sections of the CoL and CoS while leaving the unnecessary parts behind.

 

[Cyc]

Well, I hate to say it you two, but if regular, logged turnchats go, so do I. They are the checks and balances for the executive branch. If game play and decision making go behind palace doors, a large portion of the game dissappears. A needed potion.

Shaitan, you can still be president and let others be DP. That's not a big deal. If you want to be both, then attend a chat occaisionally.

 

[disorganizer]

We should carry over most of the "features" we added. Also, we maybe should leave us one month room for development of the issues under discussion right now.
Maybe some points of the ruleset should be simplified.
Some roles need discussion (governors/mayors->roles, responsibilities for example)

 

[disorganizer]

What will happen to this forum? Will it be "archived"? This would be best for reference. Maybe we could even continue old discussion in the "old place" with just a link in the new forum.
We should definitely start the new game with a "clean" forum.
Maybe we should even wait till a website is usable?

 

[GenMarshall]

Possibly what happened to Civ II's Demogame. It was arcived. I hope the new forum will have seprate sub-forums like the current one we have.

 

[Falcon02]

Yes, we definately need to archive this Demogame.

I feel the structure should remain the same (including additions), I also agree we need a new name, Pheonetica is soon to be in the past.

I'd also like to see another "Falcon's Haven" though, as I've said before that city has a special place in my heart from SimCity. (But that all depends on if My turn for city naming comes around before the next election.

I feel the Turnchat is too essential a part of the Demogame as it is. Sure, the Civ II Demogame has gone without it (at least for a while), but It's always good to have other Cabinet Members and Citizens to seek advice from, and even remind you to check things out. In my own games I have a tendency to accidentally go to the next turn before doing something vital, such as check the research rate when you'll get the tech in only a few more turns, or the next turn, to maximize gold. So, I feel turnchats should remain as the standard way we play the game.

 

[Cyc]

I've mentioned this before and still think it's a good idea. Why don't we keep this Forum active (with it's sub-forums intact) and allow people to continue the game if they want. We can post the final save and a "Hall of Fame" screen somewhere and just carry on.

Demogame2 should get new Forums (just like this), with its own heading in the CIVILIZATION III Forum.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by donsig
First of all we need a new name and new city names as well. (Well, maybe another PDX would be cool. )

Well of course!

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Cyc
Well, I hate to say it you two, but if regular, logged turnchats go, so do I. They are the checks and balances for the executive branch. If game play and decision making go behind palace doors, a large portion of the game dissappears. A needed potion.

Shaitan, you can still be president and let others be DP. That's not a big deal. If you want to be both, then attend a chat occaisionally.

I've been a vocal turn chat basher during all of Phoenatican history, but I have to admit, it is the "fun" part of the game for many people. Therefore it shouldn't be touched.

With the advent of MP arriving this fall, I believe we need to allow and keep as many features as possible that will satisfy citizens.

To me, the compromise is that the sitting Prez determines chat times, dates, and lengths of turns. Thus he or she can make it convienent for them.