Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
OK OK, we have had this topic again and again. Why do I bring it up again?
Because now is the last chance to get changes before Multiplayer comes out! If we want things fixed, we need to tell Firaxcis loud and clear, and we need to tell them now!
Before you vote, please read the following carefully, even if you *think* you know MPPS and Alliances, and even if you are an experienced player who can and does use the current system to his or her advatage!
How things work now (1.29)
Military Alliances (MA)
Two civilizations can ally against a third by signing a MA. The willingness of the second civilization depedns highly on whether the civ offering the MA is already at war with the intended foe (making the price lower) or not (making the price higher). There is no way of signing up a partner without declaring war right away.
Mutual Protection Pacts (MPP)
Two Civilizations can get each other to declare war on other civilizations via an MPP which forces the second civilization to join the first if any unit within the own cultural borders / tile improvement of the first civilization is attacked. Note the carefull wording, this is where all the problems start!
What are the problems?
1) The rules on when a MPP kicks in are stupid! If a civilizaiton signs up a defence partner via MPP, then attacks a third, the MPP does nothing, as it righly should. If the attcked civilization defends itself, i.e. only attacks units on neutral or its own land, everything is fine. But if the attacked civilizations retaliates against the attacker on the attackers ground, the MPP kicks in! Even if the defender only tries to retake a lost city. To give a real-world example: If Turkey were to surprise-attack Syria and take Damaskus, and if then Syria would try to retake Damaskus, real-world NATO would probably tell Turkey to cut it out. In Civ3, NATO would be forced to declare war on Syria and side with Turnkey when Syria counterattacks. STUPID!!!!!!
The AIs sadly do not know how to use this feature and how to avoid the consequences of it. Thus, attacked civs lash out and draw the attackers MPP partners into the fray.
2) In real world, someone planning an attack war would try to sign up partners before declaring war, not afterwards. In Civ3, you may even find the intended partner saying the will side with you, then you actually declare war and suddenly they tell you no thanx, or you realzie that even the cheap price is too much. Would have been nice to know beforehand!
How to fix that?
Easily: MPP only kick in when a civ is declare war on, that is when the line in the F4 display goes from blue to red. Thus, counterattacks are NOT a trigger for MPP declaration of war.
Military Alliances can be signed without declaring war openly beforehand. Instead, you can sign an alliance promising to go to war, if you then don't the intended partner gets pissed with you can get's to keep the money. What you would do is klcik the civ you plan to ally against, then choose a new option "Plan war against", then check out your allies.
Then, you can normally declare war on them. If you do not do so, there will be a pop-up at the end of the turn telling you: "You allied with XXXX against YYYY, but hane't declared war yet. Declare war? Yes.... No....."
If you choose "No", all deals are off but your intended allies hate you and get to keep what you promised, if you choose yes, they join you.
What are the options for the poll?
A = I want both the suggested changes to MPP and MA
B = Only MPP should be changed
C = No changes please, the current system is absurd but sufficient.
Because now is the last chance to get changes before Multiplayer comes out! If we want things fixed, we need to tell Firaxcis loud and clear, and we need to tell them now!
Before you vote, please read the following carefully, even if you *think* you know MPPS and Alliances, and even if you are an experienced player who can and does use the current system to his or her advatage!
How things work now (1.29)
Military Alliances (MA)
Two civilizations can ally against a third by signing a MA. The willingness of the second civilization depedns highly on whether the civ offering the MA is already at war with the intended foe (making the price lower) or not (making the price higher). There is no way of signing up a partner without declaring war right away.
Mutual Protection Pacts (MPP)
Two Civilizations can get each other to declare war on other civilizations via an MPP which forces the second civilization to join the first if any unit within the own cultural borders / tile improvement of the first civilization is attacked. Note the carefull wording, this is where all the problems start!
What are the problems?
1) The rules on when a MPP kicks in are stupid! If a civilizaiton signs up a defence partner via MPP, then attacks a third, the MPP does nothing, as it righly should. If the attcked civilization defends itself, i.e. only attacks units on neutral or its own land, everything is fine. But if the attacked civilizations retaliates against the attacker on the attackers ground, the MPP kicks in! Even if the defender only tries to retake a lost city. To give a real-world example: If Turkey were to surprise-attack Syria and take Damaskus, and if then Syria would try to retake Damaskus, real-world NATO would probably tell Turkey to cut it out. In Civ3, NATO would be forced to declare war on Syria and side with Turnkey when Syria counterattacks. STUPID!!!!!!
The AIs sadly do not know how to use this feature and how to avoid the consequences of it. Thus, attacked civs lash out and draw the attackers MPP partners into the fray.
2) In real world, someone planning an attack war would try to sign up partners before declaring war, not afterwards. In Civ3, you may even find the intended partner saying the will side with you, then you actually declare war and suddenly they tell you no thanx, or you realzie that even the cheap price is too much. Would have been nice to know beforehand!
How to fix that?
Easily: MPP only kick in when a civ is declare war on, that is when the line in the F4 display goes from blue to red. Thus, counterattacks are NOT a trigger for MPP declaration of war.
Military Alliances can be signed without declaring war openly beforehand. Instead, you can sign an alliance promising to go to war, if you then don't the intended partner gets pissed with you can get's to keep the money. What you would do is klcik the civ you plan to ally against, then choose a new option "Plan war against", then check out your allies.
Then, you can normally declare war on them. If you do not do so, there will be a pop-up at the end of the turn telling you: "You allied with XXXX against YYYY, but hane't declared war yet. Declare war? Yes.... No....."
If you choose "No", all deals are off but your intended allies hate you and get to keep what you promised, if you choose yes, they join you.
What are the options for the poll?
A = I want both the suggested changes to MPP and MA
B = Only MPP should be changed
C = No changes please, the current system is absurd but sufficient.
