[NFP] Incomplete Tech Lines

Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
155
Something I would like to see addressed with New Frontier are some of the gaps/dead end tech lines.

Two most glaring examples:
City defenses
Ships

City defenses stop at Renaissance Walls. I would like to see additional options to this tier.
Industrial Era - Breastworks. Adds additional defense, but no longer boosts tourism.
Modern Era - Trench Network - Adds additional defense, lowers appeal of adjacent tiles.
Information Era - Bremer Wall - Adds additional defense. Lowers appeal of adjacent tiles.
Future Era - Laser Wall - Adds additional defense. Consumes power.


Ships
There are gaps in the available military ships. It makes navies feel a bit stagnant.
Ancient Era - Galley
Classical Era - Trireme (upgrade for galley); Quadrireme
Medieval Era - War Cog (upgrade for galley); Ballista Cog (Upgrade for Quadrireme)


Airplanes
WW1 Era Bombers (Unlocks with same tech as biplane)
Stealth Bomber/Fighter (Future Tech?)
 
Something between a galley and a caravel would be nice. It would be an indirect nerf to The Vikings, relatively speaking.
 
The lack of a "galleass" really kills early naval strategy.
If we had one, we could do a little shuffling to make the caravel a medieval naval melee and let the quad turn to a galleass. Then, Players could leverage their early navy to keep up with city defense.
Also, give the barbs a "pirate ship" instead of just handing them free quads on turn one. That really sucks to deal with.
 
Actually City Defenses end with I believe Steel. Where it grants automatic defenses to all cities in your empire.

I didn't know that. What I'm talking about though is further iterations of walls. Not merely background numbers.

Another gap I forgot to mention was between swordsman and musket man. There should be a medieval upgrade called "Men-at-Arms".
 
I didn't know that. What I'm talking about though is further iterations of walls. Not merely background numbers.

Another gap I forgot to mention was between swordsman and musket man. There should be a medieval upgrade called "Men-at-Arms".

But it is a further iteration of walls. It's just not in the form of a building. Everything is a background member, that's how this game work.
 
I didn't know that. What I'm talking about though is further iterations of walls. Not merely background numbers.

The thing is, the game kind of has it right in that the industrial era represents the end of city walls as large-scale, expensive, semi-permanent constructions.

The breastworks, trenches and concrete barriers you suggest in later eras are great examples of modern civil defenses that are cheap, quick and dirty barriers that can be thrown up in times of war. They make little sense as late era (and therefore cost-scaling) constructions in the game. I mean, even Renaissance walls are kind of a bad investment in Civ 6 as things stand.

I actually quite like the way walls become obsolete and cities become tougher nuts to crack on their own, and those integral city defenses in my mind represent exactly the temporary fortifications you are describing.
 
City Defenses:

Once armies had howitzers and mortars (all developed by the beginning of the 18th century, or the cusp of the Industrial Era) City Walls as such were worthless, because the high-angle mortars and howitzers could shoot right over them to devastate the city. So, starting about mid-18th century, 'detached forts' or 'ring forts' were the answer: separate fortifications around the city to keep the enemy howitzers and mortars out of range. They had their own artillery, and by the 19th century that artillery was housed in armored turrets or 'cupolas' that could fire in all directions. They were immensely expensive to attack, but they also were immensely expensive to build and maintain, so only appeared in a few spots: Paris, some of the French border cities (Verdun springs to mind), Liege and Namur, Sevastopol, Singapore: nobody could afford to build them everywhere.
The 'automatic' city defenses in the game are a very good way to represent the fact that a 'modern' (post-Industrial) city is a mass of brick, steel girder, concrete and stone construction that provides excellent cover for the defender (and even better cover if they are collapsed by the attacker's artillery), block access, block fields of fire, and provide cover for a very dense mass of defenders. Reference Stalingrad (of course), but on a smaller scale also Naro-Fominsk outside of Moscow, where a single rifle battalion held out in a brick factory building for 64 days and most of a German infantry division could not get them out, or Aachen in 1944, where three American infantry divisions were bled white beating their way into the city despite overwhelming artillery and air support.

So, IF you want another 'layer' of explicit City Defenses, they would actually be an Improved Fort Improvement in the tiles outside the city, that has a ZOC and artillery-type range/combat factors, but also costs as much to build and maintain as a small fleet of tanks and require major commitment of Military Engineers (2 Charges each?) to construct.

Ships:

1. There should be a separate line of 'Pirate/Barbarian' ships: no pirate ever built or sailed in a Battleship, which is what a Quadireme represents in its Era, and very few even had ships as big as a Frigate. Suggested Barbarian Naval Line:
Barbarian Galley - available at Start, melee unit, Move 4, Melee Factor slightly less than a 'regular' Galley BUT can Pillage coastal Improvements and raid cities for Population Points - the most dangerous form of early piracy was not taking ships, but raiding coastal towns and villages for loot and slaves.
Barbarian Xebec - available in Medieval Era, melee unit, Pillage ability as above.
Barbarian Brig - available in late Renaissance, melee unit, can only be seen if adjacent. Pillage ability as above. Usually, the best way to get rid of Pirates was to destroy their bases.
Barbarian Gunboat - available in Atomic Era. Can only be seen if adjacent. - the 'modern' pirates, in small boats that terrorize shipping, but are totally unable to fight warships if caught. Could also be given a 'Smuggling' option that reduces Production, Amenity, Loyalty, etc.

2. Regular Ships.

The Caravel was a very small-hulled ship, which couldn't even carry any decent-sized artillery. It makes a lousy combat unit, to be blunt.
The options are:

Medieval:
Cog - combat ability was in the temporary - later permanent - 'castles' at bow and stern, which could be filled with archers, crossbowmen, and men-at-arms to outshoot, board and take an enemy. Rather than a separate unit, since almost all the hulls were just converted merchantmen, I'd make this a new Ability for medieval units: when they embark, they can attack other ships using a percentage of their melee/ranged factors.
Medieval/Renaissance:
Carrack - the first 'big hull' ship, starting in the early 15th century carrying small cannon, by the late 15th century carrying 'big guns' . The first possible, then, Ranged Combat warship after the Classical Era and first Ranged Combat ocean-going ship.
Galleon - if not a Spanish Unique, was first ship hull-type designed from the start to carry cannon, starting in mid-16th century: at about the same time as the Galleass, in fact.
By the end of the 16th century the race-build Galleon, without the towering sterncastles of earlier designs, was the 'prototype' for the Ship-of-the-Line: it could carry more and heavier guns, sail faster, sail closer to the wind, than any previous gun-armed ship.
Flota Galleon - this should be the Spanish Unique ship, if one is needed: standardized for the Treasure Fleets in 1613 - 1618 CE, race-built well-armed merchant galleons that carried some of the most fabulous cargos in history.

Ship-of-the-Line - a development of the race-built galleon hull in the mid-17th century that became the Standard Battleship until armor made them obsolete.

In Game Terms:
Medieval:
Cog - attack ability for embarked units, with either their ranged or melee factor
Renaissance:
Caravel - melee, low factor, high speed and vision, primarily a scouting/exploration vessel
Galleon - ranged, relatively high melee defense factor
Industrial (early)
Frigate - melee, high speed and vision 0- after all, they were used as scouts for Battle Fleets
Ship-of-the-Line - ranged, very expensive to build and maintain, but can blast poorly defended cities to bits.
Both the Frigate and the SoL can be Upgraded with Steam to Steam Frigates or Steam Battleships - added steam engines, shell-firing guns. Still horribly vulnerable to Ironclads, but it can extend your 'Ship-of-the-Line' investment for another half an Era or so.
Industrial (late)
Cruiser - melee, high speed, vision
Ironclad - ranged, requires lots of Coal to maintain
Modern:
The usual suspects: Battleship, Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Submarine, etc

I DO NOT believe the game necessarily needs all of the above, but for the Naval Masochists who want to be building, upgrading, rebuilding ships every 40 turns or so, there they are . . .
 
Ships:

1. There should be a separate line of 'Pirate/Barbarian' ships: no pirate ever built or sailed in a Battleship, which is what a Quadireme represents in its Era, and very few even had ships as big as a Frigate. Suggested Barbarian Naval Line:
Barbarian Galley - available at Start, melee unit, Move 4, Melee Factor slightly less than a 'regular' Galley BUT can Pillage coastal Improvements and raid cities for Population Points - the most dangerous form of early piracy was not taking ships, but raiding coastal towns and villages for loot and slaves.
Barbarian Xebec - available in Medieval Era, melee unit, Pillage ability as above.
Barbarian Brig - available in late Renaissance, melee unit, can only be seen if adjacent. Pillage ability as above. Usually, the best way to get rid of Pirates was to destroy their bases.
Barbarian Gunboat - available in Atomic Era. Can only be seen if adjacent. - the 'modern' pirates, in small boats that terrorize shipping, but are totally unable to fight warships if caught. Could also be given a 'Smuggling' option that reduces Production, Amenity, Loyalty, etc.

2. Regular Ships.

The Caravel was a very small-hulled ship, which couldn't even carry any decent-sized artillery. It makes a lousy combat unit, to be blunt.
The options are:

Medieval:
Cog - combat ability was in the temporary - later permanent - 'castles' at bow and stern, which could be filled with archers, crossbowmen, and men-at-arms to outshoot, board and take an enemy. Rather than a separate unit, since almost all the hulls were just converted merchantmen, I'd make this a new Ability for medieval units: when they embark, they can attack other ships using a percentage of their melee/ranged factors.
Medieval/Renaissance:
Carrack - the first 'big hull' ship, starting in the early 15th century carrying small cannon, by the late 15th century carrying 'big guns' . The first possible, then, Ranged Combat warship after the Classical Era and first Ranged Combat ocean-going ship.
Galleon - if not a Spanish Unique, was first ship hull-type designed from the start to carry cannon, starting in mid-16th century: at about the same time as the Galleass, in fact.
By the end of the 16th century the race-build Galleon, without the towering sterncastles of earlier designs, was the 'prototype' for the Ship-of-the-Line: it could carry more and heavier guns, sail faster, sail closer to the wind, than any previous gun-armed ship.
Flota Galleon - this should be the Spanish Unique ship, if one is needed: standardized for the Treasure Fleets in 1613 - 1618 CE, race-built well-armed merchant galleons that carried some of the most fabulous cargos in history.

Ship-of-the-Line - a development of the race-built galleon hull in the mid-17th century that became the Standard Battleship until armor made them obsolete.

In Game Terms:
Medieval:
Cog - attack ability for embarked units, with either their ranged or melee factor
Renaissance:
Caravel - melee, low factor, high speed and vision, primarily a scouting/exploration vessel
Galleon - ranged, relatively high melee defense factor
Industrial (early)
Frigate - melee, high speed and vision 0- after all, they were used as scouts for Battle Fleets
Ship-of-the-Line - ranged, very expensive to build and maintain, but can blast poorly defended cities to bits.
Both the Frigate and the SoL can be Upgraded with Steam to Steam Frigates or Steam Battleships - added steam engines, shell-firing guns. Still horribly vulnerable to Ironclads, but it can extend your 'Ship-of-the-Line' investment for another half an Era or so.
Industrial (late)
Cruiser - melee, high speed, vision
Ironclad - ranged, requires lots of Coal to maintain
Modern:
The usual suspects: Battleship, Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Submarine, etc

I DO NOT believe the game necessarily needs all of the above, but for the Naval Masochists who want to be building, upgrading, rebuilding ships every 40 turns or so, there they are . . .

1. Yes I disagree with Barbarians can build or buy BBs. they might capture Ships of the Line for their own use. but since Ironclads onwards (maybe a little bit earlier), no barbarians, pirates nor desperadoes ever built or buy ANY Ironclads, Battleships, or any armored ships.mmm
2. Is it because Ironclads will become Battleships later on and should represents the likes of HMS Warrior or La Gloire or even Qing Navy Ding Yuan and Zhen Yuan rather than ACW armored gunboats (particularly Virginia (itself was a reconstruction of a frigate USS Merrimack) and Monitor and other Union City Class 'Army-owned' Ironclads built later on? Is it because the term 'Cuirass Ships' (corazzata in Italian) are still used in Continental Europe to refer to Battleships after the term was first coined for Ironclads?)
With this should Ships of the line upgraded to Ironclads or Ironclads separately built and upgradeable to BB later on?
 
Back
Top Bottom