Indian names

[MadmanOfALeader]

What is up with the Indian names? Why is Hiawatha Ayenwatha, Geronimo Goyathlay, and Chief Joseph... I don't even remember that long-ass name! Why is it Ni-Mii-Pu instead of Nez Percé or Dinnehih instead of Apache? Come on, put in the names everybody knows. After all, what do people scream when they're falling from planes?

 

[Fierabras]

... After all, what do people scream when they're falling from planes?

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRGGGGG.....Doh!

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRGGGGG.....Doh!

I meant willingly.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

You know, I went back and forth on this. You raise two different issues:

1 - names of leaders

In the end, I went with the original name because the English name was often given to them by someone else (unlike Civ leader names which are often Anglicized versions of their original names).

Geronimo, for instance, was a name given to him by Mexican enemies with reference to St. Jerome. So why use this rather than his given, proper name? I understand completely that this is the name people know, but why not learn something new? You read it once or twice, and there you go.

2- Tribe names.

Well, this is part of a larger issue. I created population groupings based on geography. This comes with its share or controversy. Because of the way they were grouped, I used a more generic name rather than the name of one tribe. This issue may be re-addressed in the future.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

Well, by that logic, Sitting Bull would still be called Tatanka Iyotanka. Obviously, using the original names wasn't Sid Meier's intention.

And I still can't bring myself to remember Chief Joseph's real, excessively long name. Hell, I had to wiki Sitting Bull to get his name.

 

[Agent327]

I've been thinking about responding and I have to agree with the Madman: from the civ list it's completely unclear who the more exotic tribe names are supposed to represent. It would be more practical to keep the original names as Civpedia texts only - not to offend any Native speakers, but the popularized names are just better known and using the correct names will not make it better any time soon. (I realize this is a tricky issue and the final decision is ofcourse up to CIV Gold Team.)

 

[Wyz_sub10]

I don't have a problem changing to the leaders name to more well-known versions. But the tribal arrangements are a little tougher to change on the fly. I had someone mention they'd like to see a change, but when I requested his help in doing so, he disappeared.

It's not a small undertaking to re-jig 10 civs (not to mention splitting leaders, UUs and UBs where appropriate, and having to create new ones as warranted). If someone is willing to throw their hat into the ring, great.

 

[Agent327]

I'm not suggesting a general overhaul: I only meant to point out that for a first encounter it might be better to have somewhat familiar names. (When implementing CIV Gold's Patch 2 version with my scenarios I had some trouble determining which units belonged to which civs, because of the exotic sounding names used.) I do applaud the effort to use genuine names, but if the indigenous names are unknown outside the sphere of the native speakers, it might be better to have them in the Civpedia for those interested. (If it were possible to use both the original and the westernized names in the description, that'd be perfect maybe, but that seems impractical. I realize the difficulties in decisions such as these and ultimately it's up to CIV Gold Team.)

Anyway, I'd keep the tribal arrangements as is.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

The unit names are a bit confusing, but if I didn't use them we'd be stuck with a lot of "Mohawk Archer", "Ojibwa Archer", "Cherokee Warrior". Those are a bit too bland for my tastes, and considering Firaxis went with names like Cho-Ku-Nu, Quechua and Hwacha, I thought it wasn't too far out to use Ayastigi or the like.

I'll revisit the idea for 5.0.

 

[Agent327]

Errr... OK, I didn't mean the unit names, just the civs they're meant to belong to.

Also, the new unit names - as CIV Gold in general - are more consistent than the Firaxis ones (which, basically, are a bit of a mess name- and otherwise).

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

I do applaud the effort to use genuine names, but if the indigenous names are unknown outside the sphere of the native speakers, it might be better to have them in the Civpedia for those interested. (If it were possible to use both the original and the westernized names in the description, that'd be perfect maybe, but that seems impractical. I realize the difficulties in decisions such as these and ultimately it's up to CIV Gold Team.)

The CivPedia mentions Sitting Bull's real name.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

I've got a suggestion for a change...

The Upaajut Empire should be the Eskimo Empire. Not Inuit, because that would limit the Empire to that particular group. I realize that it may not be exactly P.C., but it's more recognizable. The leader's name, likewise, should be Marten Jumping.

 

[Agent327]

As I understand it Inuit is not what they call themselves.

But I'm interested to know: who's Martin Jumping?

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Marten Jumping is Thanadelthur.

'Inuit' is fine, but as noted leaves out the Aleuts and Yupiks. 'Eskimo' is considered derogatory.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

"Eskimo" is only derogatory depending on who you ask, really...

Eskimo is really the only generally known term to dump the Inuits and Yupik together.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

"Eskimo" is only derogatory depending on who you ask, really...

Eskimo is really the only generally known term to dump the Inuits and Yupik together.

I don't disagree, per se. Our pro football team here in Edmonton is called the Eskimos, and has been for decades.

But I promise you that if it were the Eskimo Empire I'd get a dozen people in here telling me it was the wrong move.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

Well, it ain't exactly putting Shaka or Mansa Musa in charge of the N!@@#& empire, but, yeah, there'd some resistance.

There have been movements to use Inuit as term for all those northern tribes. The Arctic Empire is also a possibility... We need a poll or something to solve this.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

There have been movements to use Inuit as term for all those northern tribes. The Arctic Empire is also a possibility... We need a poll or something to solve this.

I did that ages ago. People are surprising apathetic unless you hit something they are particularly keen on.

To wit, after over 20,000 downloads, there are exactly 3 of us in here talking about this.

 

[Agent327]

Maybe because most DLers like to play more than to post. (Personally I'd like to see more feedback as well... But I think there have been more posts about tribe names and such.)

 

[davbenbak]

I agree that there could be some regional name for each group of tribes. I hardly see how "Plains Indians" or "Coastal Indians" would be offensive. Maybe "Pueblo Tribes" if "Tribes" is a less offensive term than "Indians".