Indians

[zeeter]

I've got to put a nod in for India being the best Civ to play. Sure, this is all subjective and depends on how we all play, but let's look at them:

Spiritual: No anarchy plus they start with Mysticism so Buddhism or Hinduism is just one Tech away.
Industrious: +50% Wonder production

Here's the kicker for the Indians: The Fast Worker. First, they get them from the beginning of the game. Therefore all improvements throughout the game are done something like 50% faster. Second - theres no worrying about getting to the UU before the "enemy" gets to the equivilent of it. How many games have we played as, say, the Romans and we fall a little bit behind, and suddenly the Romans' unique unit is wasted because everyone else has researched the unit beyond the Prealetorian? No chance of that happening with the Indians, plus it's not a combat unit, anyway.

So the Indians' unique unit is useful at all times - not just while at war. Praeletorians, Navy Seals, Redcoats - they're only useful if your at war. You spend all of your time building them and then by the time you go to war its time to upgrade them.

Since most of the game is spent at peace, I'd much rather have the useful Fast Worker than a military unit.

 

[Merzbow]

Gandhi is awesome for OCC specifically, where you NEED certain wonders to win. You can guarantee yourself Pyramids with two Fast Workers chopping, even without stone.

 

[Sorceresss]

I prefer the Aztec & Inca "Indians".

Gandhi looks too much like a goofy Mr. Magoo.

 

[morss_4]

Actually I think the fast worker is lousy.

It'd be great if it actually worked faster, but all it does is move faster.

 

[zeeter]

I'd still rather have a fast moving worker for the whole game than, say, a two point extra Praeletorian for about forty turns.

 

[Junuxx]

It all depends on your strategy

 

[cyron]

Therefore all improvements throughout the game are done something like 50% faster.

No they're not. The Indian workers walk faster, they don't work faster. Sure, walking faster means that you can walk on to a hill and start a mine the same turn, or you can walk in to a forest and start chopping on the same turn, unlike regular workers, but even that is a 1 turn bonus at best. Given the length of time it takes to build a mine (4 turns or more IIRC), it's at best a 25% bonus.

But then if you're talking about moving 1 square across plains/grassland to build a farm, pasture, road etc, the Indian worker gets no bonus at all.

Sure, the Indian worker is nice, and much better than a regular worker, but it's not that much better

 

[hagin]

I've got to put a nod in for India being the best Civ to play. Sure, this is all subjective and depends on how we all play, but let's look at them:

Spiritual: No anarchy plus they start with Mysticism so Buddhism or Hinduism is just one Tech away.
Industrious: +50% Wonder production

Here's the kicker for the Indians: The Fast Worker. First, they get them from the beginning of the game. Therefore all improvements throughout the game are done something like 50% faster. Second - theres no worrying about getting to the UU before the "enemy" gets to the equivilent of it. How many games have we played as, say, the Romans and we fall a little bit behind, and suddenly the Romans' unique unit is wasted because everyone else has researched the unit beyond the Prealetorian? No chance of that happening with the Indians, plus it's not a combat unit, anyway.

So the Indians' unique unit is useful at all times - not just while at war. Praeletorians, Navy Seals, Redcoats - they're only useful if your at war. You spend all of your time building them and then by the time you go to war its time to upgrade them.

Since most of the game is spent at peace, I'd much rather have the useful Fast Worker than a military unit.

Ghandi is good. He's about the best if you want to go for a Cultural win (Spiritual = half cost temples = lots of cathedrals). I played him in the last game and built about 14 wonders in my capital (which was too many; I needed to spread them out). That city got to 120k culture without ever using the culture slider or producing culture directly. I think it was about 700-800 culture per turn. I foudned 4 religions (Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity when I got Theology from the Great Oracle and Islam and I just missed out on Taoism by 3 turns).

Otherwise Spiritual doesn't really compare with the Big Three: Financial, Organised and Industrious. The Americans are excellent for having Organised and the choice of the other two.

As for UUs, I think the Russians have it best: Cossacks are at an extremely useful point in the game and you have them for a long time. Compare that to, say, the English Redcoats. Useless. I've played the English twice and gotten Assembly Line (for Infantry) before I even finished building one. This could be improved by getting Rifling earlier and/or Assembly Line later but really, who wants to delay Assembly Line?

 

[zeeter]

Ghandi is good. He's about the best if you want to go for a Cultural win (Spiritual = half cost temples = lots of cathedrals). I played him in the last game and built about 14 wonders in my capital (which was too many; I needed to spread them out). That city got to 120k culture without ever using the culture slider or producing culture directly. I think it was about 700-800 culture per turn. I foudned 4 religions (Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity when I got Theology from the Great Oracle and Islam and I just missed out on Taoism by 3 turns).

Otherwise Spiritual doesn't really compare with the Big Three: Financial, Organised and Industrious. The Americans are excellent for having Organised and the choice of the other two.

As for UUs, I think the Russians have it best: Cossacks are at an extremely useful point in the game and you have them for a long time. Compare that to, say, the English Redcoats. Useless. I've played the English twice and gotten Assembly Line (for Infantry) before I even finished building one. This could be improved by getting Rifling earlier and/or Assembly Line later but really, who wants to delay Assembly Line?

aren't redcoats the replacement for musketmen? Even if they are, though, they're still useless. To this day I have not built a musketman. I shoot right for rifling and then build new ones rather than upgrading. Usually they come at a time when I've got nothing else to build, and I'd rather spend the money upgrading riflemen to infantry than archers to longbowmen to musketmen to riflemen to infantry.

 

[zeeter]

No they're not. The Indian workers walk faster, they don't work faster. Sure, walking faster means that you can walk on to a hill and start a mine the same turn, or you can walk in to a forest and start chopping on the same turn, unlike regular workers, but even that is a 1 turn bonus at best. Given the length of time it takes to build a mine (4 turns or more IIRC), it's at best a 25% bonus.

But then if you're talking about moving 1 square across plains/grassland to build a farm, pasture, road etc, the Indian worker gets no bonus at all.

Sure, the Indian worker is nice, and much better than a regular worker, but it's not that much better

Right - I realized that they don't "work" any faster after I wrote it. Still, though, the benefit of that extra movement goes a long way - especially in the beginning of the game.

 

[I am the Future]

Of Course India is the Best, But the people in the demogame are to good for it, they have to be the Random God, bastards

 

[EdCase]

aren't redcoats the replacement for musketmen? Even if they are, though, they're still useless. To this day I have not built a musketman. I shoot right for rifling and then build new ones rather than upgrading. Usually they come at a time when I've got nothing else to build, and I'd rather spend the money upgrading riflemen to infantry than archers to longbowmen to musketmen to riflemen to infantry.

All depends how you play and what you shoot for.... I find Redcoats (which actually replace riflemen..if they replaced musketmen the English would dominate every game)have their uses, just the same as any UU...knowing your UU and planning to use it effectively are two very different things.

 

[Ranos]

Redcoats are Riflemen, not musketmen.

I agree that India is the best for a cultural win and the fast workers help immensly, but I find them extremely ridiculous.

A unit from the start of the game that can move faster than any land based unit throughout the entire game. I can see the headlines: Ancient Men on Foot Beat Modern Armor in Race.

They also don't have a modern graphic. With other civs, the workers in loincloth change to men in overalls with hardhats. The Fast Workers are still guys wearing turbans.

The one extra movement isn't really all that useful. That fact leads me to belive that the Indians are intended to be used for the cultural victory.

 

[TylerDurdon]

I'd still rather have a fast moving worker for the whole game than, say, a two point extra Praeletorian for about forty turns.

U can have proetorian(?!?!),,, welll Romans UU for WAY more than 40 turn (if you can hook up iron fast)... they go all the way to rifleman... cause they get all upgraded by the time the musket come along... and you still can be kicking serious a$$ !!!!

 

[zeeter]

U can have proetorian(?!?!),,, welll Romans UU for WAY more than 40 turn (if you can hook up iron fast)... they go all the way to rifleman... cause they get all upgraded by the time the musket come along... and you still can be kicking serious a$$ !!!!

Costs a fortune to upgrade Praeletorians/Spearmen all the way from there to macemen to riflemen to infantry to mech inf. It's way more cost effective to simply build new ones - upgrading only the ones with the best upgrades (Mech Inf with three star city attack!).

What I do is usually have my army of swordsmen and archers as city defense. When I get to riflemen I create new ones and send them out - 2 to a city - killing off the archers since they only have one promotion to two for the riflemen. Then I upgrade the promoted units in my army.

 

[CyberChrist]

aren't redcoats the replacement for musketmen?

No they are replacement for Riflemen - with an added 25% boost against other Gunpowder units.

All round I find that Elizabeth is one of the strongest leaders (in vanilla version) with Financial and Philosophical traits - as well as the Red Coats for midgame consolidation of the Empire.

Having said that then the Spiritual trait is greatly undervalued IMHO. Switching between civics for unit xp, city development, hurrying, max commerce etc. without wasting production/income on Anarchy is worth a lot - especially since I find myself switching civics a lot more often than I ever switched government in any of the previous Civ versions.

 

[Yooka]

Redcoats are Riflemen, not musketmen.

They also don't have a modern graphic. With other civs, the workers in loincloth change to men in overalls with hardhats. The Fast Workers are still guys wearing turbans.

Don't wanna come off as racist, but from what I know of India, the turban is still quite popular. Maybe the rest of the outfit could use a tweak for modern times though.

Anyway, I think it's a clever decision to do what Firaxis did with India's UU. It's tough to find a prominent culture more dedicated to pacifism throughout history (not totally dedicated, I realize). I don't think it is too big of an advantage because the trade off for fast worker is there is never a "good" time era to plan an attack, due to having a non-combat UU. Also, since it's a movement bonus, I think the tendency to expand too largely or quickly, and underestimate how well one can defend their massive borders can get some Indian Civs in trouble. That being said, I don't particularly wanna play as them. But I play on random alot, so I'm sure I will eventually.

 

[zeeter]

U can have proetorian(?!?!),,, welll Romans UU for WAY more than 40 turn (if you can hook up iron fast)... they go all the way to rifleman... cause they get all upgraded by the time the musket come along... and you still can be kicking serious a$$ !!!!

This brings up an interesting point. What to do with Swordsmen/Proetorians. I've found that their best use as swordsmen is taking barbarian cities and protecting against the odd early war.

Proetorians, otoh, are good for attacking other civs early in the game. It all depends, though, on how far away the enemy is. Too far and it takes too long for replacements to get to the front and you're stuck with a war of attrition. This is why I like the fast workers so much. They're always useful. Too many games I've played where my UU was useless due to circumstances such as enemy too far, stuck on an island, enemy is a step above me technologically thus obsoleting my UU. Never happens with Fast Workers.

 

[zeeter]

Redcoats are Riflemen, not musketmen.

That's odd. Seems to me that the real redcoats were musketmen. Riflemen are more like civil war soldiers or maybe even WWI soldiers.

 

[zeeter]

Also, since it's a movement bonus, I think the tendency to expand too largely or quickly, and underestimate how well one can defend their massive borders can get some Indian Civs in trouble. That being said, I don't particularly wanna play as them. But I play on random alot, so I'm sure I will eventually.

Ya - I've run into a lot of trouble with them. Was all the way down to 0% tech once and it was killing off my workers because I had expanded too much.