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IndieStone D.U.C.K.S mod

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Creation & Customization' started by lemmy101, Oct 15, 2010.

  1. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Hello all, just announcing our first mod which will be out *at some point*. We'll post any information on the development of the mod here. Any suggestions, discussion and feedback welcome. :)


    Written, designed, coded and arted by some combination of CaptainBinky and lemmy101.

    The purpose of this mod is a continuation / rewrite of the Civ 4 Indie Stone Gameplay Mechanics, and its goal is to provide deep and interesting new gameplay mechanics which we hope to make fit as much as possible within the ethos of Civ V's design and feel like natural extensions to the base game.

    Religion System


    A brand new, from the ground up Religion System designed for Civ 5 and to fit within the Civ 5 gameplay. It will replace the piety social policy branch as the representation of religion in the game, with a new policy branch built around the advisor system (see second post) instead of the Piety branch.

    This system will be quite different from Civ 4's religion system, as it will allow players to create, name and define their own religion based on a tree (well two, really) very similar to the technology tree in the current game.

    A new type of yield is introduced called piety which is accumulated by certain buildings, wonders and specialists in your cities. Monuments, temples and various other buildings and wonders will generate piety.


    Note we've used the city state icon as adding new font icons is currently not possible.

    The piety fills up toward a threshold in the same way as culture does for social policies.


    Polytheism

    When it hits the threshold for the first time, you are prompted to...


    You are given the opportunity to name your religion, then press okay to be introduced to the Polytheism tree.



    (Click for full size. This is an in-game screenshot. Note this is WIP and not a complete tree, it is likely to change massively before release)​

    This is where the leader can then work their way through a wide tree representing different gods their culture worships, from worshipping a Sun God, The Creator, the Fertility Goddess, the God of War, or Lord of the Underworld, and numerous others. Each god you choose will give you a bonus (note we're not necessarily implying whether worshipping gods would have any real world effect, it would possibly just be the effect of a culture revering and becoming more adept at the relevant things that they worshipped. For example a culture built around worshopping a water god would likely be more adept at sailing or fishing.) and each god can be further specialised with branches following off them.

    Note a key factor here is that the player is forced to spend those piety points, he has no choice. This plays a huge part later.

    The player then progresses, choosing as many of the gods as they wish to. They could stay with a Polytheism for the rest of the game if they wish, but at some point they can decide to adopt a Monotheism.

    Monotheism

    Travelling down the tree is in most cases further refining one particular god. Once you hit the end of the Polytheism tree, you will unlock 'Declare X to be the one true God!', by which you can turn into a Monotheism. At this point the path you chose through the tree will be picked as your Monotheistic God, and you will lose the bonuses from all other branches down the tree you have unlocked. This means that most players who prefer to play with a Monotheism would be likely to bee-line one god to get to it.

    At this point you unlock the Monotheism tree:



    (Click for full size. Mock-up of the first section (or 'age') of the Monotheism tree. Note again this is WIP and not a complete tree, it is likely to change massively before release)​

    Here you will be able to travel down various paths to further tailor your religion toward war, philosophy or culture, by selecting the different 'doctrine' on the tree. Sometimes paths will be unlocked with techs, and as you go down, at the end of each 'age' or 'section' of the tree you will hit chokepoints, the first of which (seen in the above screenshot) the 'Divine Scripture' doctrine. This is the point that your holy texts are scribed, and at this point you get a 100% boost to your piety output Civ wide, and as well as this the entire section above is permanently locked off, allowing you to unlock no additional branches.

    Each of the ages of the religion ends with a similar chokepoint, which both multiplies your piety production and locks off the preceding section from being explored any more.

    The further down the tree you get, the more powerful the effects are, but with the later ages come more restrictive and potentially dangerous doctrine.

    With the discovery of Scientific Method, this unlocks a new technology to research called The Enlightenment.


    Age of Enlightenment

    This is a dead-end tech that provides a unique effect. It's effect means that you are no longer REQUIRED to spend your piety points on advancing down the Monotheism tree (or Polytheism if you stayed there and by some chance you've not filled it by now) this simulates the rationalisation and moderation of religion, along with secularism. The player can then choose exactly when and how far to advance down the tree. This tech will also unlock the Rationalism social policy branch, and is now the only way to obtain it. This makes The Enlightenment tech, while not required, instrumental to scientific progress in your Civ.

    An important aspect of The Enlightenment tech is its cost is proportionate to the number of piety points you have accumulated. If you have been modest with temples, and therefore you are only generating a small number of piety points per turn, then the cost of The Enlightenment will be cheap. If however, you have focused heavily on piety through the entire game so you could get the more powerful effects earlier, not helped by all the piety multiplying choke points following each age, the cost of the tech will continue to rise so much that after a certain tipping point it may become literally impossible to research with your current science levels, since its cost is rising faster than you research. At this point a piety heavy Civ will need to build various buildings in their cities to help stem the flow of piety to make the tech researchable.

    Fundamentalism

    The thing is though that the Monotheism tree starts to become more fundamentalist as you start continuing down the tree, and while you are forced to spend your points, you will continue down the tree whether you want to or not, with the religious leaders having more and more power over governmental affairs. Later down the tree you may even find yourself being forced to declare permanent war on another Civ with a different religion, or certain luxuries being banned, researching of specific techs slowed dramatically, and various other negative effects that get more extreme the further down the tree you go.

    Depending on your focus in the game and victory conditions you're going for, this route may be desirable, but it will be very difficult to win a science victory without the investment in The Enlightenment tech.

    Religion Spreading


    The main core difference between the religion spread in Civ 4 and Civ 5 is that religion is no-longer city-wide. Each citizen of a city has their own faith. So for multiple religions to be present in the same city, they each have a particular strength depending on the amount of followers. Also it's common to have some population that do not follow a religion at all:


    Note that only one of the four population is a Duckist. Also the piety produced is 7. That's 4 from the temple, 2 from the monument and 1 from the one citizen worshipping the religion.

    In cases where you have 100% of your population following your state religion, the city is said to be 'Devout' and has a special sun frame to the religion icon:


    As well as a convenient way for your opponents to tell where the weaknesses in your armour are. A lot of the doctrine tie into devoutness, only affecting devout cities, only having an effect when all your cities are devout, or having severe penalties when any of your cities are not devout.

    Religion spreads from city to city in a similar way to in Civ 4. Except of course in DUCKS we have a unit of religious strength in the 'piety' yield, so it is this that determines how the religion spreads.

    Every turn, piety is transmitted from any source of piety (a city being the prime example, but there are others) outward toward any cities in its vicinity. There is a falloff in strength down to zero at the maximum range, and it is this value that determines how much piety of the religion is added to the target city.
    Piety is totalled up by that produced by buildings, specialists and the faithful population in cities, as well as the piety projected onto this city from around.

    For example, you have a city with 3 devout Duckists, a temple and a monument. This will generate 9 piety per turn (two from the monument, four from the temple, and three from the citizens).

    If there is another player's city 3 tiles away, then the will get a proportion of this piety in their city each turn. Supposing the city gets 5 piety after the falloff (the actual amount of falloff is still very much in the balancing phase) This is then used to calculate a base chance of one unreligious citizen converting to that faith every turn. This factor is modified by several things, such as open border agreements, road networks and so on.

    After 20 or so turns, finally one population converts to Duckism! Hurrah! Now the city is producing one piety of its own, and with the 5 piety it is getting that means it is now totalling 6, meaning there is a higher chance per turn for the next citizen to convert.

    Not only this, but that city is transmitting its 1 piety back to the original city, and once its piety output increases enough to survive the distance falloff, it will be increasing the chance of population conversions in the original city. This effect bounces back and forward around the map magnifying piety production, meaning the more concentration of piety in an area, it will lead to a magnified more powerful conversion force.

    It is important to note, however, that your piety that's collected toward doctrines only counts piety produced in your cities. Piety in other people's cities is used purely for conversion.

    Priests and Great Prophets

    Priests - A new specialist who generates extra piety when working in Temples / Monasteries etc. Collect great people points toward:

    Great Prophet - Yep, they're back!

    Abilities:

    Start Golden Age - Golden ages also increase the range and/or strength (balance determining), of your piety emission, making it easier to convert other civs.

    Build Shrine - The GP's great improvement. It can be built in neutral terrain as well as in your borders. Has a range of 5 hexes and adds 5 piety with no falloff to any city within range, yours or other players cities. Instead of missionaries (at least until the SDK), your new way of attacking far away civs with your religion is to send a great prophet out to build a shrine near to their borders, these will then start transmitting piety to any cities in range over the border every turn, though taking an armed guard is a must, not only to protect the GP, but then you'll need to station guards at the shrine indefinitely to make sure it's not torn down by another Civ.

    Other Civs can counter this without declaring war by getting control of the tile the shrine is in, giving them ability to eject the unit and pillage / replace the improvement.

    They can also be used in your own civ borders to bolster your own cities piety production (the only way it will count toward your doctrine unlocks)

    This also allows for combo moves, since your own cities get bolstered by the shrine, they will become more effective at transmitting their piety to other player's cities. If you get a shrine in range of your own cities and your opponents, then they will not only get the piety from the shrine, but also increased piety from the cities that shrine strengthens. This makes shrine placement very important and strategic.

    Splinter Religion - If you have a state religion that you're not in control of (was founded by someone else) you can use the GP to break off your own religion using theirs as a basis. Your new religion will still retain the same holy city, and all the doctrine unlocked to that point, but then you can develop it on your own. You can also edit the name by adding a prefix or suffix to the original root name to make your offshoot religion.

    Influence, Requests and Demands

    With the mod comes a new system that ties deeply into religion, but also other areas of the game. The mod will define various groups in your Civ who can get more or less influence down to social policies or religious doctrine you choose.

    Each group starts with 0 influence, and some policies/doctrine will say +/- <group> influence, meaning that group has more influence in society and therefore more sway to make requests or demands off you.

    The Democracy social policy, for example, gives +2 Citizen Influence. When influence is greater than zero, occasionally if a city is unhappy the population may make a request for a building or an improvement with a bonus if the request is completed in time. As the influence rises, the requests will become bigger, at higher levels of happiness, and will become demands with more and more severe penalties for not completing.

    The different groups are:

    Citizen

    Either general population or the population of a city. Will make requests for stuff such as building a building / unit / improvement, will give rewards such as an X turn happiness bonus, extra culture, food, gold etc. Punishments include extra unhappiness, or in extreme cases create pillage improvements or create rebels around a city.

    Faithful

    The pious population of a city or of your Civ. Will generally make requests relating to religious buildings, demand a priest specialist for X turns.

    Religious Leaders

    The religious authority for your religion. The later, more powerful doctrine will slowly raise the religious leaders power in your civ, and these can be quite problematic if you let their influence get too high. They will make requests for religious buildings, as well as in extreme cases demand wars, or the permanent banning of resources and so on.

    -------

    Please note that the progression of religion has been designed to explore all the themes of religion, negative and positive, whether the mechanics are realisticly representing how these themes come about or not, and we're not making any statement or judgement on any real world religions, so please no offence is meant. We've stayed away from representing real world religions, giving players the choice as it means we can have more variety and depth hopefully without offending anyone.

    New Leaderheads

    Between 'one' and 'some' new Leaders! (undetermined amount depending on how difficult it proves to be to get them in-game once Nexus is repaired)



    Alfred the Great



    Boudica

    More later!

    More details coming soon!


    ;)

    Thanks!

    lemmy101 & CaptainBinky
     
  2. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Other features to follow Religion

    Corporations, Advanced Resources & Consumer Goods System

    This new system will provide much more depth to the resource system, as well as introducing a new Corporation system that is designed with Civ V in mind.

    In brief, the mod will introduce a range of additional resources, some additional map resources, along with manufactured resources. Each resource will be organized into tiers, with primary resources being things such as cotton, furs, dyes, and so on.

    If you have the correct combination of these resources available to your Civ, you will have the opportunity to build different buildings in your cities by using a great person (the type relevant to the type of building you want to build), that will convert these multiple resources into a more valuable new resource. For example if you have cotton and dyes, you will be able to build a clothier's store with a great artist, and convert one of each of these resources into 'luxury clothing'. These will have additional effects, and can also be used to make use of surplus resources that you are unable to trade.

    Additional resources may be supplied or unlocked via relevant technologies, and second tier generated resources can be used together to obtain even more effective third tier resources. Gold and silver can be used by a jewellers to make 'jewellery'. Luxury clothes combined with jewellery, for example could provide even more desirable clothing with an increased effect.

    When you reach the modern age, if you have these resource conversion buildings in your city, you will be able to compete with other Civs for a wonder equivalent to the building, which will create a corporation in that city. Owning a corporation for specific manufactured goods will multiply the amount of resources obtained by your conversion buildings by 5, and will prohibit any other Civ from producing them. They would then have to trade with you to obtain these resources, giving you a monopoly on them. In modern day you could even see your Civ exporting the equivalent of an iPod internationally with no chance that any other Civ has them.

    Version 2 of this system would, like religion spreading, allow for corporation spreading, and deepen this system further. Potentially developing a domestic and world market system for the economy, that would be similar to Paradox's Victoria series (though undoubtedly simpler to get your head around. :D)

    Advisor System

    A port of the Advisor system from our Civ 4 mod, this allows you to employ various notable people from history to be your advisors, each who bring unique effects and are tempted to your cities by completing specific objectives fitting that character. This will perhaps need a rename since advisors are a much bigger part of Civ 5. For details, look at the link above to the Civ 4 equivalent. It will likely be redesigned massively to fit in with Civ 5's ethos.
     
  3. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Another thing we're talking about doing, this would be quite a massive shift from the core Civ 5 gameplay so may do it in another mod, but to save on making new threads left and right I'll post it here.

    City Building Strategy Mod - Needs a better name

    This system changes how cities work dramatically.

    When you build a city, you're effectively just setting down a single town tile that's only a small part of your eventual city. You can draft workers from the population (up to a maximum of say 2/3) to work the lands around your city centre, as before.

    The amount of buildings you can build in a city centre (the tile you built the city on) is cut down dramatically, with the ultimate aim that ALL traditional building / wonder construction will be removed from the game entirely.

    Its replacement? Your workers can build buildings and wonders on the tiles surrounding the city just as they currently build improvements.

    Improvements / buildings will be changed from having a city effect to have a radius effect (made visible in-game somehow) , and the distance from the city centre that population can work is increased dramatically. Buildings will work in the same way, with specialists being able to work in them. Difference now is they will also be using a tile in the city screen. Farms will provide food for a radius around the tile, barracks can build military units, wonders are built on the tile they appear on and may have an area affect etc.

    Workers, when building an improvement, building or wonder, will build at a rate of the amount of production available in the yields surrounding the worker's construction site (worked or unworked, though perhaps worked tiles would provide a bonus since the workers would not need to obtain those materials themselves). Barracks and other production buildings will build at a rate based on the production in their vicinity also.

    Buildings will get a severe penalty to production/effectiveness if they are not within the range of a free farm or other food source, or alternatively a trade route to get supplies from the nearest city.

    This will change war dramatically, as the ability to pillage will make an attacking force all the more dangerous. Even wonders are not immune to pillaging, though pillaging will take sufficient time so as it can be stopped and reversed.

    Walls will be redesigned to use the 'great wall' code to be created by workers (not sure of how this would work, but the hope is to allow players to create their own walls tile by tile) to give a huge defensive bonus to those behind it.

    Air units would be built using an airport, sea units from a dock. Basically we're taking the cities out of the one tile and sprawling them over the landscape, giving the player infinitely more strategy in how their cities are built.

    Another one for the DLL SDK I'm afraid. We'll probably co-develop this one separately (jumping between them as and when we get bored / frustrated with the other;)) but integrate religion etc into this version at a later date, tailored to this version of the game.

    Thoughts / suggestions? :)
     
  4. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    A mod already.. Wow:)
     
  5. Supercheese

    Supercheese Zeppelin Commander

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    Hah, a "dangerously contrived acronym" indeed.... I like it! :lol:
     
  6. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Well not 'already' I don't think it'll be out till the SDK sadly as chances of us getting this system working without it aren't great, we just got tired of sitting on it so posting about the systems and our progress. ;D
     
  7. MashPotato

    MashPotato Chieftain

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    Sounds cool :D
    I like the sound of how religion will have widespread and lasting implications, and how it will evolve more organically (as opposed to BANG--Buddhist! BANG--Christian! BANG--Muslim! of the Civ 4 system). The idea of a runaway religion that "takes over" if not managed is neat too--I can imagine a fertility goddess-worshipping civ that demands extra farms to fuel the baby-makin' ;)

    One concern that came to mind is that many of the buildings that would make sense in generating Piety would also be the ones that generate Culture. It will be a tricky thing to balance for those of us who like poppin' out wonders ;)
    Just curious (although I know it's early and still needs to be balanced out): is the Piety social policy branch planned to be affected by this? It also might be confusing to have two systems that are both called "Piety".

    I declare this mod SPIFFY (Sounding Particularly Interesting For Funtimes. Yay!). Good luck, guys!
     
  8. LoneGamer

    LoneGamer Chieftain

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    Grand ideas! I'll be looking forward to this indeed. Thanks for the little tease :goodjob:

    I'll be monitoring this thread for updates. Good luck guys!
     
  9. thebignobody

    thebignobody Chieftain

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    sounds completely EPIC, even more-so than your playthroughs ;)
     
  10. TheChanger

    TheChanger Chieftain

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    i love the look of this religion design :)
     
  11. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Yeah we'll need to work on that, but then culture and religion do kinda go hand in hand a lot of the time.

    Way we see it is, mainly, religion would want to be kept in check for space-race and probably diplomatic victories, and would be useful for cultural / domination victories.

    The Piety branch is going to be replaced with an advisor related branch, with all of its effects represented in the religion system some place. The Rationalism branch will unlock with The Enlightenment tech.

    :D!
     
  12. iRule

    iRule Chieftain

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    Hello.

    It's been over a year since I last came here, and let me inform you that you're the reason for my comeback. I came here to check if the mod community for Civ V was as alive as the IV one was, and I came across with this awesome mod project.

    Sorry for my impatience, but when do you think you'll be able to present a beta for us?

    Cheers and good luck:)
     
  13. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    It's up to whenever Firaxis release the DLL SDK, which the mod will absolutely need unfortunately, as things like 'adding piety as a new yield' rely on the source code and are way out of the scope of the current modding tools. However, we're working on everything we can without it, and when the SDK is released I would think there will be some early alpha of the system (likely with a fair bit of missing stuff) a couple of weeks after that.

    It may well be Christmas or beyond when the SDK is released, unfortunately... maybe sooner, we'll have to see.

    Thanks for the kind words! :D
     
  14. Monadenia

    Monadenia Chieftain

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    Just to re-bring up points I had in another thread:

    • I really like this general idea. Get a nice, simple parallel system of religion and make it interact with everything else in the game to make it really complex.
    • I had an idea of "empire-wide GP points" contributing to the Piety resource. In the other thread I don't think I made myself clear, Lemmy, so let me try again. GPs would be acquired as usual, in a city-wide fashion, with a separate bar for each type, same as usual. But the GP points per turn, empire wide, could also go towards producing Piety resource somehow. Probably this would best be done after getting a certain SP or choosing a certain religious path. Or, maybe I just see everything else being used nicely for empire-wide effects and am irked that GP points don't do that, too - they remain something you really need to worry about on a city-micromanagement level. Of course, same thing could be accomplished by giving a certain amount of Piety per specialist/Wonder, but there you go.
     
  15. CaptainBinky

    CaptainBinky Chieftain

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    Thanks Monadenia. Tying in GP points is a nice idea - I'm not completely sure that great scientist points, for example, really make sense to add to piety but I definitely like the idea that the GP points could be made to impact your Civ as a whole. We'll think about this as we develop.

    Cheers :)
     
  16. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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    Cheers Monadenia! :) we've been talking about your global GP bucket idea and have some interesting ideas for it, though a lot of them are probably more suited to the Corporation element of the mod than the Religion ones.

    Added some more information and new full body version of Alfred to main post.
     
  17. Rime

    Rime Chieftain

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    This is most exceptionally awesome on so many levels I cannot even begin to describe how fascinated with your ideas I am.

    Please keep up the amazing work. You make me believe there is still hope for Civilization V.
     
  18. JLoZeppeli

    JLoZeppeli Chieftain

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    lemmy are you actually working on it or it is now only an idea?

    I think that the reliogn system you elaborate is quite good, obviusly it's like a social politics upgrade tree, so it as no interaction of sort with others civs.. Are you thinking of some ways to make it work as a diplomacy interaction? Not the idiotic way of Civ IV to make good relations, but a far better way to establish a solid concept of religion over nations...

    And if you need some help, i can provide historical knowledge on the matter.
     
  19. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    I subscribe to this... minds like you are the hope for civ5... :goodjob:
     
  20. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

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