Industrious

bradbowen

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 16, 2002
Messages
95
I thought at one time that I read that the Industrious trait had been weakened in the Conquest upgrade. But I am having trouble finding it. Maybe I am not remembering correctly. I thought that I read somewhere that the worker bonus is less.

Am I remembering correctly?
 
Yes.
Industrious workers doesn't anymore work twice as fast, they work only half faster than regular ones.
 
Akka said:
Yes.
Industrious workers doesn't anymore work twice as fast, they work only half faster than regular ones.

.....that's a pretty big downgrade

I used to judge it to be the best trait. I think the new agrecultural trait is very strong. I guess I would say religious would be the other strong one.
 
I just finished my first demigod win as the americans. I 'finished' improving my lands long before the game ended and I was able to rejoin most workers into my cites and just keep a small crew on hand for automated pollution cleanup. So industrious is still good, especially combined with democracy and I think replaceable parts. Work gets done pretty fast compared to my other game as germany in a republic. I was pulling my hair out because work was taking so long. Thats just a plug for democracy over republic (everyone loves republic) but I like less corruption and faster workers of democracy.
 
What the best trait is, is debatable, and much debated. IMO, both industrious and religious are mediocre. The best traits are in no particular order:

Seafaring: Best trait on archipelago maps, great on continents, decent even on pangaea. Not as good on tiny maps, or maps with increased land ratio, as curraughs can often move anywhere even with only 2 moves.

Commercial: My favorite

Scientific: Another favorite

Agricultural: Great when you start with fresh water. Mediocre otherwise. Smaller archipelagos tend to almost have no fresh water whatsoever, pretty bad then.

I usually play Sid/Deity with English or Greeks.
 
Agricultural is easily best trait, even more so in deity/sid- levels. Add commercial-trait and fast UU and what you get= Iroquois, best civ in emperor+levels...
 
IMO:

In pre C3C, industrious was the best trait. The rest was very debatable, but industrious really had an edge over all of them.

In C3C, industrious is just an average or maybe mediocre trait like others.
Agricultural however is so incredibly strong. This is unbelievable. I just can't understand how the downgrade industrious and then introduce a trait that is even much stronger than industrious has ever been.

Agricultural is about as strong as any 2 or 3 of the other traits combined.

If you really want to find out the power of agricultural, build a normal map, play till 1000BC and note your citizens+workers counts. Then play the same start with an agricultural civ and see the difference. I am sure the difference will be rather impressive.

Iroquois, yes they might very well be the best civ for emperor-deity. (and possibly also for the lower levels as the MW will easilly be able to win the game below emperor, possibly BC)

For Sid however, i think the netherlands is the best civ. Sid is better played on archipellago and with bombardment units. Seafaring and a good unit to defend the bombardment units fit better there.

Scientific is useless on higher levels. You aren't researching, you are traiding, conquering, stealing and extorting techs. You should be able to keep up with science anyway, if you fail to do so, the few free techs at new are's won't solve your short commings.

Commercial is pretty good both for the higher OCN and the cheap markets, especially on higher levels where you actually build markets and maybe even banks.

PS: to have some rivers on archipel maps when playing Sid and also to make it feel like a real and honorable victory, choose average or high land %, not the lowest.
 
To wacken mostly:

The Iroquois used to be my Civ of Choice for Sid Pangaea maps. Now, I have switched to the Greeks and feel that I have more success with them, might be just my style of play. Success used to be very much based on getting the GL (building or capturing).

Usually my scientific aquisition goes something like this. Contacts are acquired ASAP, then hopefully the Alphabet (being an expensive tech) can be traded for some of the other opening techs. When writing is researched (at min.) most of the others usually have it, but I can usually trade it to some laggards. Research literature at max, big question: possible to build GL? Usually no, but literature can be traded even for expensive stuff like Construction if you have monopoly. Big problem: how to acquire Republic? Self research is usually too slow and it is too expensive to buy. Solution: scientific trait.

For lower levels I still prefer the iroquois. If you do not like commercial, the Sumerians are pretty great too.

On archipelagos I wonder why you would choose agricultural. Might be I would change my mind if I played larger maps, but the archipelagos I am dealt tend to have very little fresh water, an extra food after changing to Republic is of less importance. Also, seeing as one usually plays Archipelagos to get isolated starts, one also has more time to fill the local lands before the AIs come knocking. Therefore an extra food in the capital is less critical.

Trading is easier and research tends to go slower on archipelagos so I feel scientific is less needed than on pangaeas, therefore I prefer the English.

All this might just be a matter of style though.

P.S. Doc T. started quite an interesting thread about ranking the Civs which spawned a long discussion on civs and civ traits:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104658&page=1&pp=20
 
INdustrious agricultural is the best possible combo in the game followed extremely closely by militaristic industrious. Hence IMHO the 2 best civs in the game, the mayans and chinese
 
bingen:
Big problem: how to acquire Republic? Self research is usually too slow and it is too expensive to buy. Solution: scientific trait.
:confused:
What do you mean here? Trading for Republic with the free Tech?

And, regarding to my ranking attempt:
I think it is pretty interesting that more and more players rank not only Iros and Dutch, but also English, Greece, Sumeria, and Byzantines as high as I did; originally, nobody seemed to agree with me here.
But if you look at Jopedamus for example...I think we have a convertit her :lol:.
 
@ DocT: You like to make fun of me, don't you? ;)
Well, I have to admit that after some tweakings to your original rankings its now very close how I see rankings should go. Still I don't like as much English and Byzantines (maybe because I don't like to play archipelago), but otherwise...
:goodjob:
Just trying to get my first sid-pangaea win.. last time almost made it, with France. Maybe next time I will make it! :p
 
Jopedamus I said:
Just trying to get my first sid-pangaea win.. last time almost made it, with France. Maybe next time I will make it! :p

Try playing large maps(I would extrapolate to huge maps, but I lack the patience to play them), I find them a bit easier (although Sid is never easy). This being due to larger trading oppurtunities.

Humouros sidenote, I have lost my 2 last Sid games culturally :lol: .
 
bingen said:
Commercial: My favorite

Scientific: Another favorite

Agricultural: Great when you start with fresh water. Mediocre otherwise. Smaller archipelagos tend to almost have no fresh water whatsoever, pretty bad then.

The scientific trait is of no value until the second age or until a library is built.
 
bradbowen said:
The scientific trait is of no value until the second age or until a library is built.

As I tried to explain, the first bonus tech comes at a very critical time. As witnessed by the classic "Natrionalism Slingshot'" the other bonus techs can also be hugely useful. Libaries are quite good. I find ICSing a bit distasteful so a cheap cultural building is good to have, they also help pulling of a printing press orr similar. On lower levels where self research is best then they are obviously invaluable.

Also, similar criticism can be launched against most traits, even agricultural if you have little fresh water..

To briefly touch on the orginal topic, did not captured workers also use to work twice as fast for industrious civs while they now not even get the 50% bonus?
 
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