Industry New Best Virtue?

[sprang]

I think Industry needs to stay the way it is to provide a gold standard against which other Virtue paths can be measured. It's consistent and has a good pace to it.

player1 fanatic:

I don't think Prosperity is good as a starter if you start with PAU and Artists. The Colonist appears way too early, and can be risky and awkward. With PAU and Aristocrats, the mixed raw output might allow a strict Knowledge Game easier, since it deals with Knowledge's Energy problem easily. Industry to Profiteering, then Knowledge might interesting. The strong Energy production can allow a strong, even expansion push through Colonist purchase, favoring Generators for tiles and food from buildings and Basic Resources.

Re: changes to industry tree
Agreed that it'd be nice to beef Knowledge and Might up to be as powerful as Ind and Prosp.

As for Prosp, I keep finding that I delay taking the colonist when I open artists. I want to wait on the colonist until after I get Pioneering so I can get the free soldier out faster. If the colonist pops too early, I have to build a soldier quickly because having two cities and no military is just begging to get DoW'd.

 

[Roxlimn]

I think the strength of industry as a whole should stay the same. Balancing virtues within industry could still be a good change, however. Alternative Markets is a bit too good, and the bonus production to orbital units is pretty garbage.

Haha. I'm not sure about that personally. At Gemini, Alternative Markets is kind of just competitive with ETRs, considering it costs a Virtue. At Apollo before, it wasn't. However, even in 1.0, it was a fairly remarkable Virtue for anything lower than Gemini.

If you ask me, Apollo players could ask for more nerfs to that, ideally without warping the gameplay at lower difficulty settings. Certainly, mechanics that scale up with AI Strength need to be nerfed with an atomic hammer at Apollo - but only at Apollo (and possibly Soyuz and Gemini).

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah, agreed. Balance up towards Industry, not down towards the other trees.

 

[RakeWorm]

I agree with that sentiment, as well. It would feel lackluster if Industry was brought down to the lowest common denominator instead of making the others more dynamic.

 

[CraigMak]

IMO the free colonist is invaluable. Any strat that does not involve getting that colonist as soon as possible is not competitive.

I can see going from the colonist and then to industry or colonist + worker speed then industry.

The worker speed and colonist are huge IMO. I also think nature's bounty very very good.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

IMO the free colonist is invaluable. Any strat that does not involve getting that colonist as soon as possible is not competitive.

I can see going from the colonist and then to industry or colonist + worker speed then industry.

The worker speed and colonist are huge IMO. I also think nature's bounty very very good.

As long as you can plant this colonist before t30 it matters little if you get colonist on turn 10 or turn 25, imo.
Personally, I still can't design a playstyle that would do good without rushing at least mind over matter in Prosperity, and Eudamonia/Joy from variety/T2 prosperity synergy some time later. Therefore I'm pretty sceptic about Industry being the best affinity.

 

[Roxlimn]

Profiteering is functionally 1 health per city. In fact, it seems to be a global bonus, so once you have 6 cities, it's +6 Health - equivalent to Mind Over Matter considering you can get it as your 4th Industry Virtue. You'll need good growth and to research a Health building, then go for Magnasanti. Until then, the bonus from Alternative Markets and boosted internal routes (+25%) helps to offset not having as many or as big cities. Stations are your friend, here. Develop them early and fast to get that juicy free +18ept. With 2 Stations, it's +36 ept.

Growing cities quickly to 16 and using Biowells + buildings to get a health neutrality quickly is key to using the boosted Manufactories. Otherwise, they're likely to tip you over a Health breakpoint, and cost more than they give.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Profiteering is functionally 1 health per city. In fact, it seems to be a global bonus, so once you have 6 cities, it's +6 Health - equivalent to Mind Over Matter considering you can get it as your 4th Industry Virtue. You'll need good growth and to research a Health building, then go for Magnasanti. Until then, the bonus from Alternative Markets and boosted internal routes (+25%) helps to offset not having as many or as big cities. Stations are your friend, here. Develop them early and fast to get that juicy free +18ept. With 2 Stations, it's +36 ept.

Growing cities quickly to 16 and using Biowells + buildings to get a health neutrality quickly is key to using the boosted Manufactories. Otherwise, they're likely to tip you over a Health breakpoint, and cost more than they give.

I though about it, too.
Profiteering is hardly equal to MoM, to me. I need bonus from MoM around the time I settle 4th city. Typically I'm at around -10 health at that point.
Eudamonia against magnasanti could be competitive. Typically I'm at least at 35 unhealth by the time I reach eudamonia, which results in a +5 health. Can I have 25 buildings by the time I reach magnasanti? Probably. Almost certain actually.

But heck, I'll try that. Could be challenging for supremacy, but oh well.

 

[Xenotitan]

I discovered something about magnasanti the other day. It isn't 0.2 health per building. It is 1 health for every 5 buildings in a city, no fractions. For example, if you have city A with 4 buildings and city B with 6 buildings, that's 1 health. If both cities had 5 buildings that would be 2 health. So it is slightly weaker than we first thought.

 

[Gorbles]

You sure? I'd imagine the visual on the UI only updates every 1 point of health, but I'd imagine 1.4 Health from Magnasanti combats -1.4 of Unhealth.

 

[Roxlimn]

Xenotitan: Hm. I had assumed that that was how it worked in the first place. Fractions are not rounded down elsewhere, I guess. Might account for some of the things I noticed.

FaceUnderMask: Supremacy is hard because Firaxite is scarce and Optical Surgery is expensive. I confess that I do not know how to really play that right, or if Supremacy Game needs a buff. I'm trending yes, but I still have to test it post-patch. 4 cities = 16 unhealth + 0.75xPopulation. Base Health = 9, so exactly 7 excess, minus Health from Compensated Pop.

Clinic+Cyto+Pharmalab = 6 Local Health 4.5 + 4 = 8.5. Each city would have 1.5 left over after maximum basic Health compensation using basic buildings. 4x1.5 = 6, which is below the basic Global Health allowance. For 4 cities, there's an additional 4 Health from Magnasanti, allowing the Capital to be 12-13, with a second city at size 10 (and 2 at size 8).

The requirement to grow quickly requires aggressive growing strategy - Vivariums everywhere, food choice at every Quest, Refugees as Colonist choice. Of course, all the Health Buildings must be purchased or pre-built before the pop catches up.

Health allowances will be strict at this stage of the game, but 2 size 1 cities can be allowed for -8 total Health, assuming care is taken with the capital. Alternatively, you can work Biowells in the Capital after size 8 to generate more Health, while you tech Optical Surgery.

Aggressive Industry Virtue acquisition yields:

Labor Logistics: +10% to Production for Buildings
Commoditization/Central Planning: +1 Energy per Basic Resource or +5 Energy in Capital

Count your Basic Resources to make a sound choice

Standardized Architecture: +25% Production for Buildings already in the Capital (Purchased, usually)
Profiteering: +0.5 Health per Trade Unit
Alternative Markets/Independence Network: Prefer AM here, but dependent on how many Stations you've developed once you get the Virtue. With 2 Tier 3 Stations to target, AM is a no-brainer. Otherwise, go IN
Social Investment/Liquidity: Both future investment Virtues. Liquidity somewhat makes IN a competitive choice (you can only get Liquidity if you went IN). You'll be buying a bunch of Trade Units, after all.
Civic Duty: +0.5 Production per Population
Magnasanti: 1 Health for every 5 buildings.

8 Virtues to get to Magnasanti. You get the Synergy bonus: +10% Energy in every City.

It's nice to circle back and get the ones you didn't pick up the first time - Alternative Markets and Independence Network are both nice Virtues, and Liquidity is good for emergency army purchases and Trade Unit purchases.

Commoditization can be worth a later pick up if you find spots with lots of Basic Resources, but it's situational. Could go for Knowledge after Magnasanti if Health is favorable. The 2nd Tall Synergy for Industry is +10% Production per City. Might be worth picking up two extra Virtues in Industry for that.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

I discovered something about magnasanti the other day. It isn't 0.2 health per building. It is 1 health for every 5 buildings in a city, no fractions. For example, if you have city A with 4 buildings and city B with 6 buildings, that's 1 health. If both cities had 5 buildings that would be 2 health. So it is slightly weaker than we first thought.

That's not slightly weaker. That's about 30-40% weaker during turns 80-180.
Perhaps Roxlimn is right and biowells are the way to go, although I'm not sure I can provide a stable source of gold to support both biowells and academies en masse. And if you add manufactories into that then it becomes an optimization disaster.

 

[sprang]

For reducing unhealth, Magnasanti is better.

For average late game cities of size 10-16, you get LOTS of buildings - 16-20 is not uncommon. These are the cities that are carrying your empire. Size 16 is a little big for the comparison. Most players will be getting to Magnasanti or Euda quite a bit before they have many size 16 cities. More like size 12. At size 12, base 4 + .75*12 = 4+9=13. Eudamonia gives about a -2 improve to unhealth; Magnasanti will give at least +3-4 health, maybe more.

Before the nerf, they were about equal. Now, Magnasanti is clearly superior.

I'd also note that the TR nerf means that it's harder to grow huge cities, which was what Eudamonia really helped. A size 30 city won't have twice as many buildings as a size 15, but you'll get almost twice the Eudamonia benefit.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Health allowances will be strict at this stage of the game, but 2 size 1 cities can be allowed for -8 total Health, assuming care is taken with the capital. Alternatively, you can work Biowells in the Capital after size 8 to generate more Health, while you tech Optical Surgery.

WTH. Both biowells and magnasanti are local sources?

 

[Gorbles]

I'd imagine Biowells are local (being a tile improvement), but Magnasanti is global (being a Virtue).

 

[Roxlimn]

FaceUnderMask:

The Health Crunch comes between Profiteering and Magnasanti. Once you get Magnasanti, your Health game shifts from keeping out of negative to maxing out the bonuses you get from high positive Health. Biowells are local. Magnasanti appears to be global.

Your Health situation will be MUCH worse if you get the free Colonist from Prosperity because acquisition of Profiteering and Magnasanti will be very significantly delayed, even with Artists and PAU. If you go for the Free Colonist in Prosperity, my instinct tells me to just go down the tree for Mind Over Matter and Eudaimonia.

EDIT: also, you're not using mass Biowells. It's only to tide you until you get Magnasanti and Optical Surgery. Mass Academies don't come until much, much later. If you want mass Academies in the mid game, that's a Knowledge play.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

FaceUnderMask:
If you go for the Free Colonist in Prosperity, my instinct tells me to just go down the tree for Mind Over Matter and Eudaimonia.

Yes, and that's basically how I play as supremacy. Then I go Industry almost as you've suggested.

EDIT: also, you're not using mass Biowells. It's only to tide you until you get Magnasanti and Optical Surgery. Mass Academies don't come until much, much later. If you want mass Academies in the mid game, that's a Knowledge play.

How are you gonna fuel your science to get later-game technologies, then?

Postpatch I go something like Pioneering - Chemistry - Ecology - Engineering - Power Systems - Computing - Genetics - Cognition. Pretty mid-game, if you ask me.

 

[Roxlimn]

With that Virtue path, it looks to me like you're better off with Science Specialists. Academies cost 2 energy per turn, and they only output 3 without Learning Centers, and they use up a lot of Worker turns.

 

[DarkestOnion]

On Soyuz+: The 3 virtues to get a free colonist is still viable in order to claim some of the map to block AI expansion and the movements of their initial Explorers (NO OPEN BORDERS!) Then you should pursue Might in order to get +50% combat XP and then Science for killing Aliens and removing Alien nests to catch up to AI technological progress. While you are in Might pick up +20% researched Affinity yields and the free Affinity Virtue. Then beeline to Magnasanti Virtue to balance yourself out to positive health so your empire looks nice until you Domination Rush and watch your Health fall to -40 and you win the game.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

With that Virtue path, it looks to me like you're better off with Science Specialists. Academies cost 2 energy per turn, and they only output 3 without Learning Centers, and they use up a lot of Worker turns.

Specialists don't generate food, while academy on grassland is basically food-neutral.
You receive 3 specs from institute, which becomes available with bionics, which is as expensive as cognition, and you receive 3 more from transgenics and 2 more from nanotech, which are expensive and not really on my supremacy path, at least not nanotech.
Also massive specialist yield can't be concentrated within a city, it is always distributed, therefore hypercore+organ printer booster is not as effective.
Energy is an issue, yes, but it's manageable. Workers are pretty cheap to pre-build right before cognition and could be used for magrails later.
So unless my tiles are dirt-cheap I don't see how specialists are better than academies. If my tiles are dirt-cheap, then I would use specialists, but unless I'm playing purity it would require biowells, which are also money-hungry.

Am I missing something?