Kennelly
Starfleet Admiral
I also honestly don't think Fanatika should become a democracy ever.Peace is NOT the answer in these dark world,so we shouldn't introduce democracy ever.
Informational Poll: When should we enter Democracy?
- Thread starter Donovan Zoi
- Start date
Zarn
Le Républicain Catholique
I'm sorry DZ, but the people don't want Democracy. Even I voted no a while ago.
FortyJ
Deity
I abstained. While I don't think we should never consider it, I think that within the next 20 turns is certainly too early to do so. I'm thinking more like after we get whatever we can get from our Panzers.
I am not too sure we are going to get Panzers before our enemies have Mechanized Infantry if we remain a monarchy. We will fall further and further behind, and then someone is going to build the UN, and we are suddenly going to lose even though we are the strongest civ on the planet. Industrial and Modern age techs are only given as reparations at the end of a war if the losing civ is down to only a couple cities. This is because of the huge price tag on these technologies. If we are going to base our technological progress on what we can get by fighting others, we are going to become a very backwards civ.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Whoa! I see donsig has returned to his DG1 level of statistical reporting. Great work donsig. I might want to debate a couple of points, but it looks like Military costs will definitely nullify Science expenditures. One thing your report (which I like) doesn't show, is war weariness or the shield production and budget costs to counter it. That's a heavy thumb on the scale.
I'm guessing that option #2 in the poll means more than 10 turns but less than 20 turns. I'm not sure by the wording (can we be more precise on the next poll, DZ?). But in guessing that, I voted for option #2, as this situation may change drastically by then and may require another look.
Quoting Donovan Zoi:
Why do I even bother putting my effort into the Size 12 Plan, which goes hand in hand with having a Democratic government, if no one wants to enjoy the benefit of what that plan would provide?
____________________________________________
Please don't feel this way. Your efforts are very much needed to move us forward to a point where a Democracy can be realized. We definitely need size twelve or higher cities and your plan can help us get there. True, we would enjoy the benefits of a Democracy much more with the fuition of your plan, but we need the fruition of your plan to achieve Democracy. Keep your chin up.
I'm guessing that option #2 in the poll means more than 10 turns but less than 20 turns. I'm not sure by the wording (can we be more precise on the next poll, DZ?). But in guessing that, I voted for option #2, as this situation may change drastically by then and may require another look.
Quoting Donovan Zoi:
Why do I even bother putting my effort into the Size 12 Plan, which goes hand in hand with having a Democratic government, if no one wants to enjoy the benefit of what that plan would provide?
____________________________________________
Please don't feel this way. Your efforts are very much needed to move us forward to a point where a Democracy can be realized. We definitely need size twelve or higher cities and your plan can help us get there. True, we would enjoy the benefits of a Democracy much more with the fuition of your plan, but we need the fruition of your plan to achieve Democracy. Keep your chin up.
Zarn
Le Républicain Catholique
I would like to see a Republic formed. It has nothing to do with me being Republican. It doesn't have the war weariness of Democracy. It's (The republic) war weariness is far smaller.
Shaitan
der Besucher
I'd also like to discuss Republic as an alternative to Democracy. I personally don't think we're ready for Republic either but it has more going for it than Democracy (for our game style and objectives).
I'd really like to see a DFZ analysis of Republic in the style of the Democracy one.
I'd really like to see a DFZ analysis of Republic in the style of the Democracy one.
Feodor Ardent
Grizzled 'ol Civ Veteran
Hmmm . . . a noble effort, but unconvincing. I can't find any point in my gaming memory where I was (as a Republic) stuck in the Industrial Age getting a tech every 16 turns. Usually it is anywhere from 2 turns to 7.
Nor can I ever recall a game in which the Change didn't give an immediate and obvious (within a dozen turns) improvement in my fiscal and cultural progress.
As for War Weariness, I recall it being a nuisance on occasion, but I general take this as being a good sign that the war is running on way too long.
If someone can provide a good statistical counter-argument to this I would be very intereseted. My time is limited this weekend, as I am making a 20g upgrade to my kitchen. I'm told the new stove will light itself.
Feodor
(setting up a new household in Bavaria with his Indian wife.)
Donovan Zoi
The Return
Well here is my last plea. Maybe I am trying to do too much at once, but we have the tools right now to improve our situation almost overnight.
I am currently offering all the ideas of Democracy and the Size 12 Plan because they are meant to work in tandem.
Democracy would help the Size 12 cities(with emphasis on commerce-heavy harbor towns) grow our treasury to the point we could raise the science rate, which will allow us to once again become competitive in the tech race.
Democracy increases the efficiency of our workers to build rails to other civs. faster, to build fortresses faster, to put much-needed mines in hills faster so our cities can build units and improvements faster.
Democracy lowers corruption across the board to allow our far-reaching cities to build units faster, improvements faster, and add more money to the treasury than they can right now. Those cities and any others we conquer will be practically useless without Democracy.
Democracy will enjoy a smooth transition due to eight luxuries we have....all eight! With an emphasis on markets and a Domestic Leader that pledges to keep an eye it, war weariness will be kept well in check.
All we have to do is endure 4-6 turns of anarchy and then watch Fanatika grow:
-Watch Fanatika get to Panzers before anyone has tanks.
-Watch Fanatika build and expansive rail network in no time flat.
-Watch Fanatika's treasury grow to the point where we could consider rushing factories.
-Watch Fanatika react confidently to any threat becuase it has the production and treasury to back it up.
War is possible under Democracy, folks. We have the tools in place to benefit from it and kick butt at the same time. I will consider this term a personal disappointment if I am not allowed the opportunity to prove that to you.
I am currently offering all the ideas of Democracy and the Size 12 Plan because they are meant to work in tandem.
Democracy would help the Size 12 cities(with emphasis on commerce-heavy harbor towns) grow our treasury to the point we could raise the science rate, which will allow us to once again become competitive in the tech race.
Democracy increases the efficiency of our workers to build rails to other civs. faster, to build fortresses faster, to put much-needed mines in hills faster so our cities can build units and improvements faster.
Democracy lowers corruption across the board to allow our far-reaching cities to build units faster, improvements faster, and add more money to the treasury than they can right now. Those cities and any others we conquer will be practically useless without Democracy.
Democracy will enjoy a smooth transition due to eight luxuries we have....all eight! With an emphasis on markets and a Domestic Leader that pledges to keep an eye it, war weariness will be kept well in check.
All we have to do is endure 4-6 turns of anarchy and then watch Fanatika grow:
-Watch Fanatika get to Panzers before anyone has tanks.
-Watch Fanatika build and expansive rail network in no time flat.
-Watch Fanatika's treasury grow to the point where we could consider rushing factories.
-Watch Fanatika react confidently to any threat becuase it has the production and treasury to back it up.
War is possible under Democracy, folks. We have the tools in place to benefit from it and kick butt at the same time. I will consider this term a personal disappointment if I am not allowed the opportunity to prove that to you.
I do not like the idea of becoming a republic. While the war weariness is somewhat lower, the other benefits are lost. Normally, in my games, the increased worker production doesn't really matter at this point, but this would significantly help our nationl, as would the decrease in corruption.
Donovan Zoi
The Return
Exactly, eyrei.....
Republic still has all the military penalties Democracy has(no martial law, per turn maintenance for all units, more mild war weariness) with more corruption and a less efficient workforce.
Is the only drawback a larger case of war weariness? We have eight luxuries, most of them under our control, which will more than offset that issue.
So hop in, Republicans, if that's the only problem. There's room on the Democracy train for all of you and more!
For the record, my vote was for "within 10-20 turns" as we still need to prepare somewhat.
Republic still has all the military penalties Democracy has(no martial law, per turn maintenance for all units, more mild war weariness) with more corruption and a less efficient workforce.
Is the only drawback a larger case of war weariness? We have eight luxuries, most of them under our control, which will more than offset that issue.
So hop in, Republicans, if that's the only problem. There's room on the Democracy train for all of you and more!
For the record, my vote was for "within 10-20 turns" as we still need to prepare somewhat.
Strider
In Retrospect
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
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I agree with DZ.... The only strong reason for not switching to democracy is the large number of military units we have. With that though... We also have a large number of cities, otherwise we wouldn't be able to support our military right now. The normal effects I see in democracy is a sligiht decrease at the begining, but with the added worker rate and lower corruption the bank account starts to zoom up in no time flat.
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