JWJ
Chieftain
Here's what I suggest for a guerilla: 7/4/1 with hidden nationality. This would be an interesting unit to use, and also would feel more like a guerilla than the one they currently have.
Infrantry: one of the core problems of the game
- Thread starter JWJ
- Start date
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Hmmm....there is an exploit with hidden nationality land units Im afraid.
Hidden nationality units can attack without a declaration of war, and this means that they can also pillage as well. But if you are at peace with someone, and have a right of passage agreement, then you could stack a normal visible unit WITH the hidden nationality unit (so that it cannot be attacked, because you are at peace), and then pillage and plunder your way right across an AIs empire....and there is not a damn thing that the poor AI can do about it! It wont declare war or attack your visible unit, because it doesnt know that you are the owner of the hidden one. And it cannot attack the hidden unit without first having permission to attack your visible unit.
Its a bit of a Catch-22 for the poor AI player.
Still, if you promise yourself that you will never use this exploit, then yes, why not.
What would I do with the Guerrilla?
Well, as a 6-6-1 unit that becomes available at the same time as the 6-10-1 Infantryman (assuming that you have rubber), and after the 4-6-1 Rifleman (if you dont have rubber), its not really much cop is it....especially as it costs almost the same as these others.
And El Sop is right; if we change Riflemen & Infantrymen to be 6-6-1 & 10-10-1, then they are even more useless.
So how about this:-
Attack 7, defence 7, ZOC, with the offensive strategy, but lets have them ACTING like guerrillas, and give them a move of 2 in all terrain types (PTW is needed for this).
Now, because they know the lie-of-the-land, they can slip away if hard pressed.
(Im thinking of the Soviet & Yugoslavian partisans of WW2)
Then Paratroopers could be 8-8-1 +1 hit point (a bit weaker than Infantry because they are only lightly armed, but they can paradrop, and they are the elites of most armies), and Marines could then be 12-8-1 (with the amphibious ability of course).
How does that sound?
Hidden nationality units can attack without a declaration of war, and this means that they can also pillage as well. But if you are at peace with someone, and have a right of passage agreement, then you could stack a normal visible unit WITH the hidden nationality unit (so that it cannot be attacked, because you are at peace), and then pillage and plunder your way right across an AIs empire....and there is not a damn thing that the poor AI can do about it! It wont declare war or attack your visible unit, because it doesnt know that you are the owner of the hidden one. And it cannot attack the hidden unit without first having permission to attack your visible unit.
Its a bit of a Catch-22 for the poor AI player.
Still, if you promise yourself that you will never use this exploit, then yes, why not.
What would I do with the Guerrilla?
Well, as a 6-6-1 unit that becomes available at the same time as the 6-10-1 Infantryman (assuming that you have rubber), and after the 4-6-1 Rifleman (if you dont have rubber), its not really much cop is it....especially as it costs almost the same as these others.
And El Sop is right; if we change Riflemen & Infantrymen to be 6-6-1 & 10-10-1, then they are even more useless.
So how about this:-
Attack 7, defence 7, ZOC, with the offensive strategy, but lets have them ACTING like guerrillas, and give them a move of 2 in all terrain types (PTW is needed for this).
Now, because they know the lie-of-the-land, they can slip away if hard pressed.
(Im thinking of the Soviet & Yugoslavian partisans of WW2)
Then Paratroopers could be 8-8-1 +1 hit point (a bit weaker than Infantry because they are only lightly armed, but they can paradrop, and they are the elites of most armies), and Marines could then be 12-8-1 (with the amphibious ability of course).
How does that sound?
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
It would be rude of me to ignore socralynnek & Krayzeenbk, so I shall answer them now.
Yes, cannons and artillery did certainly help .but infantry did not always have this luxury.
The problem with Civ3 is that you have no choice....because foot troops have an attack so much weaker than their defence, you are FORCED to use cavalry for every attack. So we end up with masses of cavalry running around, storming fortresses, storming walled cities, charging into mountains, woods, and jungles.
Was it like this in reality? No. A Napoleonic or American Civil War army had about 10% cavalry at most.
And how many Napoleonic battles were won by the cavalry?....none.
How many American Civil War battles were won by cavalry?....none.
As for the role of cavalry in WW1....
But in the game, you have no other option. Cavalry are the ONLY unit that can attack, so that is the unit you must use.
And yes, you can use masses of cannons & artillery in the game to blast an enemy force....but it is a shame that this is a HUMAN ONLY tactic, as the AI never does the same. So what does the AI do? Yep, you guessed it, it builds masses and masses of cavalry, the ONLY offensive unit it is allowed!
Here I must disagree with you. ALL my history books, without exception, tell of infantry attacking and defeating other infantry, in almost EVERY battle, sometimes even if they were entrenched.
Yes, cannons and artillery did certainly help .but infantry did not always have this luxury.
The problem with Civ3 is that you have no choice....because foot troops have an attack so much weaker than their defence, you are FORCED to use cavalry for every attack. So we end up with masses of cavalry running around, storming fortresses, storming walled cities, charging into mountains, woods, and jungles.
Was it like this in reality? No. A Napoleonic or American Civil War army had about 10% cavalry at most.
And how many Napoleonic battles were won by the cavalry?....none.
How many American Civil War battles were won by cavalry?....none.
As for the role of cavalry in WW1....
But in the game, you have no other option. Cavalry are the ONLY unit that can attack, so that is the unit you must use.
And yes, you can use masses of cannons & artillery in the game to blast an enemy force....but it is a shame that this is a HUMAN ONLY tactic, as the AI never does the same. So what does the AI do? Yep, you guessed it, it builds masses and masses of cavalry, the ONLY offensive unit it is allowed!
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
World War I battles in Palestine against the Ottomans used Cavalry. At this point in history they weren't quite obsolete. But Cavalry isn't a superior weapon, it is only a weapon that is used when there is enough open space to use the speed.
I think WWI should guaruntee that offense is ground to a hault, though. Instead of 10.10.1, which is very powerful, it should be 8.10.1, which is more balanced for the cost.
BTW, Guerrillas could aslo be an invisable unit if you want it to be unique.
I think WWI should guaruntee that offense is ground to a hault, though. Instead of 10.10.1, which is very powerful, it should be 8.10.1, which is more balanced for the cost.
BTW, Guerrillas could aslo be an invisable unit if you want it to be unique.
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
I do see your point about WW1 infantry Louis XXIV, but consider this....
As I posted before, an attack of 10 verses a fortified defence of 10 only has 1 chance in 3 of succeeding...and this is in grassland, without any extra terrain advantages such as forests/rivers/hills.
Isn't that enough?
The Germans, the ones who were fortified and defending, suffered almost as many casulties as the attackers!
As I posted before, an attack of 10 verses a fortified defence of 10 only has 1 chance in 3 of succeeding...and this is in grassland, without any extra terrain advantages such as forests/rivers/hills.
Isn't that enough?
JWJ
Chieftain
I think that's an excellent idea for guerilla. 7/2/1, invisible except when adjacent.
We're back to the realism argument.
If we're all so concerned about realism, we should consider the fact that as total dictators, we live forever, and even in democracies, there are never any elections.
The way the Civ3 units are set up is the division of units with HPs into primarily offensive or primarily defensive units.
The AI actually DO use Infantry as offensive units, sometimes, too much. With its 6 Attack, high defense value, AI likes to build them instead of Cavalry, which also has 6 Attack.
Ideally, AI should also factor in things like movement and retreat chances. Something I hope will be fixed for C3C.
If we're all so concerned about realism, we should consider the fact that as total dictators, we live forever, and even in democracies, there are never any elections.
The way the Civ3 units are set up is the division of units with HPs into primarily offensive or primarily defensive units.
The AI actually DO use Infantry as offensive units, sometimes, too much. With its 6 Attack, high defense value, AI likes to build them instead of Cavalry, which also has 6 Attack.
Ideally, AI should also factor in things like movement and retreat chances. Something I hope will be fixed for C3C.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I didn't know about the battle of the Somme casualties, but the other thing that didn't seem right is that for 20 shields, the infantry line increases from 6.6 to 10.10, which is a massive change.
Clown2TheLeft
Prince
Re: the Hidden nationality thing...
You could make it a spy option to expose 'em, no?
Later!
--The Clown to the Left
You could make it a spy option to expose 'em, no?
Later!
--The Clown to the Left
Globetrotter
...wherever i may roam...
Originally posted by Kryten
So how about this:-
Attack 7, defence 7, ZOC, with the offensive strategy, but lets have them ACTING like guerrillas, and give them a move of 2 in all terrain types (PTW is needed for this).
Now, because they know the lie-of-the-land, they can slip away if hard pressed.
(Im thinking of the Soviet & Yugoslavian partisans of WW2)
Then Paratroopers could be 8-8-1 +1 hit point (a bit weaker than Infantry because they are only lightly armed, but they can paradrop, and they are the elites of most armies), and Marines could then be 12-8-1 (with the amphibious ability of course).
How does that sound?
Exactly the stats i have got in my mod!!!
Krayzeenbk
Rocket Constructor
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 1,018
I added all terrain as roads to my Guerilla, so it acts as one hell of an attacker. It's now too powerful, so I'm thinking of a way to weaken it - any ideas?
Krayzeenbk
Rocket Constructor
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 1,018
Originally posted by Kryten
So how about this:-
Attack 7, defence 7, ZOC, with the offensive strategy, but lets have them ACTING like guerrillas, and give them a move of 2 in all terrain types (PTW is needed for this).
Now, because they know the lie-of-the-land, they can slip away if hard pressed.
(Im thinking of the Soviet & Yugoslavian partisans of WW2)
Then Paratroopers could be 8-8-1 +1 hit point (a bit weaker than Infantry because they are only lightly armed, but they can paradrop, and they are the elites of most armies), and Marines could then be 12-8-1 (with the amphibious ability of course).
How does that sound?
Guerillas with 2 movement and all terrain as roads are way too powerful, as a mod I made a long time ago showed. I don't believe it was a PTW mod anyways.
And as for the battle of the Somme, don't ignore the massive artillery bombardment.
Yes? This isn't what Kryten proposed.
He proposed move 2 and "ignore move cost", this isn't the same as ATAR.Well, the guns of WWI wasn't very expensive compared to 19th century rifles, but they were better.
Besides, those WWI guys invented the metal helmet. 
i spend like 10 min reading all this
and i have some things too note
Cavalry was THE force in combat till the end of the English reign in France..they began too lose dominance too ranged units, wich where being fit better and better with anti cavalry weapons.
WW1 had some cavalry charges..wich where even more useless then infantery coz the Cavalry where simple target practice..
Imagine a guy..on a horse with a sword or gun (u can't fire very accurate when riding) charging into u're ranks..u spot him 200m or 300m away..within range of u're weapon..he's on a big horse
How can u miss?
Second..about the anti-Armor units
I added sumthing like that too, i gave em a little less atk..but they had bombard one tile..allowing them too dmg armor and other units before the battle starts, it did work nicely. But the AI sumtimes used it as a main Def unit..so i flagged it as Artilery.
But i agree that the Infantery is rated too low on Atk
and i have some things too note
Cavalry was THE force in combat till the end of the English reign in France..they began too lose dominance too ranged units, wich where being fit better and better with anti cavalry weapons.
WW1 had some cavalry charges..wich where even more useless then infantery coz the Cavalry where simple target practice..
Imagine a guy..on a horse with a sword or gun (u can't fire very accurate when riding) charging into u're ranks..u spot him 200m or 300m away..within range of u're weapon..he's on a big horse
How can u miss?
Second..about the anti-Armor units
I added sumthing like that too, i gave em a little less atk..but they had bombard one tile..allowing them too dmg armor and other units before the battle starts, it did work nicely. But the AI sumtimes used it as a main Def unit..so i flagged it as Artilery.
But i agree that the Infantery is rated too low on Atk
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Originally posted by Globetrotter
Exactly the stats i have got in my mod!!!
Forgive me Globetrotter, but I must admit that I have never played your mod....
....still, it is good to see that we have both come to the same logical conclusion.
To Krayzeenbk:-
My fault. I should have made it clearer. As mrtn has posted, in PTW you can arrange it so that some units always pay one move point no matter what the tile, so that they are never slowed by difficult terrain (this has the advantage of still allowing them to move faster on a road if one is available).
To Louis XXIV:-
Yes, the jump from 6 to 10 is a bit large....but this has always been in Civ3 since the start, and everyone seems to have accepted it.
All I am suggesting is that we make the attack equal the defence.
(But I bet that people will STILL complain that an attack of 10 for WW1 Infantry is not enough when they lose one while assulting a Spearman!
)alpha wolf 64
Byte me
there used to be a old military axiom that you needed 3x the firepower of a fortified defender, including any terrain advantages for the defender. Old Avalon Hill games that I played gave the advantage to the defender until 3:1 where it was even, after which, the attacker held the advantage. I think A and D should be the same and the terrain/fortifying bonuses should be increased. I made them the same, and doubled all defensive bonuses and I like the results.
Guerillas should have hide function, so theyr'e weak, but can attack from mountains or other places. I think this can be able only in your teritory and captured cities (cities that enemy had capturet from u), cuz u can't hide in your enemy's people home or near them.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Originally posted by Kryten
To Louis XXIV:-
Yes, the jump from 6 to 10 is a bit large....but this has always been in Civ3 since the start, and everyone seems to have accepted it.
All I am suggesting is that we make the attack equal the defence.
(But I bet that people will STILL complain that an attack of 10 for WW1 Infantry is not enough when they lose one while assulting a Spearman!
The Spearman is defending, not attacking
I guess another way to do it would be to increase the strength of Riflemen (and probably Cavalry) to a little bit higher (maybe 7.7.1 and 7.3.3).
