instant MPP tiggering

[Grille]

I thought I knew about MPP triggering. At least about the territory thing. Now I'm a bit confused.
I failed to plant a spy in Moscow. Russia was already mad about me, thus they declared war on me (the only war between any civs at that time). They had no allies at all. A few turns later, they signed MPP with England. Immediately England declared war on me, too. My understanding until then was that England would declare war on me when I would continue to attack/bombard/pillage during my next turn. I'm assuming now that my hostile actions in enemy territory in the last turn before MPP was signed were remembered to activate it instantly. So a flag must have been set. Any confirmations/doubts?
BTW, England was an arch-enemy of mine. Even so I don't know why they've signed MPP. They had just one city left and no units at all. Harakiri.

 

[morkaphi]

Just my guessing, maybe Russia also bought England as an ally to fight you, at the same turn of the MPP signing?

Or it's an attitude thingy that, England had been real mad at you and gracius to Russia, then decided to join her pal to fight you after the war was declared? I read bamspeedy's attitude article, but don't recall if a hostile attitude that reaches a certain degree will trigger wars... I can't confirm that either.

 

[Grille]

Yes, England was really mad at me.
No, MA Russia-England against me was not signed. I would have got a message then. (And I checked also foreign advisor next turn).
It was like that: I made my turn with succesful attacks. End of turn. Enter. Pop-up: Russia & England (or vice versa E&R, can't remember) signed MPP. Pop-up: England... bla ... had MPP.

I cannot say for sure if Russia gave anything to England for that MPP. England had nationalism, but they didn't even draft to have one single defender in their last city (and yes, city size was big enough).

 

[morkaphi]

Hmmm, that makes me think if this is the case: your troop stays in Russia territory as you end your turn, Russia signs MPP with England, attacks your troop in the Russia turf, then the MPP kicks in as you are considered an invader with your guys in the Russia?

In the England case, she probably has her defender disbanded because she's short of gold?

 

[Grille]

Hmmm, that makes me think if this is the case: your troop stays in Russia territory as you end your turn,

This could have been the case. (And probably just staying there triggered MPP. And very probably this is very common then... ? d'oh? )

Russia signs MPP with England, attacks your troop in the Russia turf, then the MPP kicks in as you are considered an invader with your guys in the Russia?

Russia was very weak, too. They couldn't counter-attack anymore at that point of time. MPP info and war declaration followed up w/o any movement inbetween.
(But I could have been considered as invader by just staying...)


England case: not unusual, yes probably short of gold; but if there was drafting w/o gold left, won't that rifleman be disbanded next turn: draft, turn-end, defend, "auto-disband", draft... until pop runs too dry. Ok, ai is just stupid, like me(?).

 

[morkaphi]

Well, I was only guessing about your case, so it might be wrong even it makes sense... hopefully someone will have things confirmed.

I wonder if AI is smart enough not to draft, as it knows the unit will be disbanded the next turn because of the anticipated negative cash flow?

 

[Grille]

morkaphi,
my guessing is that your guessing was absolutely right.

But the anticipated negative cash flow...
draft=defender=negative cashflow, survival possible
no draft=no defender=no negative cash flow ("clean reputation"), finished off - was like that in the game

and yeah, I've lost my self-confidence; can't say for sure exactly when unit will be disbanded (end or start of turn).

 

[Catt]

I can't be certain since I've never followed it closely, but I believe you may be the unfortunate victim of how the turn-based system was implemented in Civ III (even though you're undoubtedly more often the beneficiary of the same turn-based system). In my experience, an MPP can be triggered by (i) an attack against the enemy in enemy territory, or (ii) substantial (or any?) military (i.e., with A / D values) units ending their turn in enemy territory. I have definitely had defensive MPPs triggered solely by an AI civ's forces entering my territory and ending their turn there without an actual attack.

My guess (purely speculation, mind you) is that the "turns" worked like this: (1) you attacked Russia and had enemy units in Russian territory at the end of "your turn;" (2) Russia, during "its turn," induced England into an MPP; and (3) England, with MPP in place from "Russia's turn," checked, saw that you had units in Russian territory and declared war pursuant to its MPP.

I'm guessing this way because I have had the experience of being at war with the Babyonians (for example), with substantial units in Babylonian territory, and then learned that Babylon signed an MPP with Germany (for example). If I made peace with Babylon next turn, no German declaration; if no peace, an immediate declaration at "Germany's turn," even if I didn't actually attack Babylonian units or cities. A review of the order of turns (especially obvious in the replay movie as capitols are founded) revelaed that "Babylon's turn" came after "Germany's turn," meaning that at the time Babylon made an MPP, I still had "my turn" to go (and take action) before "Germany's turn" when Bismarck would look to see if its MPP was activiated. In your case, I suspect you had no opportunity to change the facts on the ground between the MPP (in Russia's turn) and the check for MPP violations (in England's turn) -- ironically, if the diplomatic activity occured during "England's turn" you would have had the opportunity to avoid the MPP trigger.

Just one potential explanation!

 

[Grille]

Thanks Catt,
I think yours is not just one explanation, but the right one. It makes sense.
Regarding the ai player's turn sequence or order of play, can I predict it by not looking at different player's unit movements?
Maybe by looking on F8 screen or the list offered by shift-d?

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Grille
Thanks Catt,
Regarding the ai player's turn sequence or order of play, can I predict it by not looking at different player's unit movements?
Maybe by looking on F8 screen or the list offered by shift-d?

Don't know about the various lists and what, if any, turn order has on them. And yes, you can watch turn movements to determine the order -- but this can be very difficult especially on larger maps. Unless you have a unit within range of moving units of every single civ, you can't necessarily be sure you're seeing the whole order progress from one to the next - I think you just need to be careful in making conclusions based on unit movement order.

 

[Grille]

The "list" I was referring to is the diplomacy menue with the choice of civs to talk with (appears by shift-d or clicking on that tiny "D" at info box). I had spontaneously guessed that this list order *could* provide the play order, I'll have to pay attention to that. In addition, the order of pop up info about wonders being built by civs *could* follow the play order. If so, one could make a guess about play order very early in a specific game, as almost every civ tries to build a wonder in the ancient and they also have very likely the ability (and intention) to switch to another wonder, when the first wonder aimed for got completed. Anyway, knowing the play order would't have prevented that instant MPP triggering. But knowing that order could be useful when something is signed during ai's turn. BTW, I have noticed that ai negotiations during their turn are not started at fixed point of time (i.e turn start/end), but inbetween movements of units.

 

[Tiamat]

I have found that to find out what order that AI moves in, if you use Shift-D to bring up the Diplomacy window, the turn order for the AI starts at the bottom of the list and works to the top. I have found this to be consistent every time I have checked the list and then watched the replay.

 

[Grille]

I was guessing so, thanks for confirmation, Tiamat.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Tiamat
I have found that to find out what order that AI moves in, if you use Shift-D to bring up the Diplomacy window, the turn order for the AI starts at the bottom of the list and works to the top. I have found this to be consistent every time I have checked the list and then watched the replay.

Cool