Internal Trade Route Yields [pre patch]

If I may offer some comments, I don't think I'm a big fan of your design, as I rather feel that it doesn't quite address what's basically wrong with trade routes.

In my opinion, it would be better if trade didn't create any additional production or food at all, but just moved it around.

Thank you for your feedback and explanantion!

Changing TR's to not create yields, but only to shift them, would be a very drastic change. Sure worth considering, but it's something that surely won't come before an expansion or even Civ6. It would change everything we know about TR's so far, and it would be a totally different mechanic. You would need to adapt everything, from the AI to the overall amount of yields possible per city.

I also don't think it's unrealistic for TR's to "create" yields.

Imagine an isolated, communist country like North Korea. If they need vehicles for their army, (and won't take Russian leftovers) they have to produce everything from tires to engines to weapons locally on a small scale. Very inefficient.
Globalized, connected countries take a lot of stock parts, or make a shared order with their partners to allow mass production.

Exhchange of production means this for me: Each city specilizes in a few industrial fields and exchanges its efficiently produced parts to create cheaper final products.
 
I've read both of your posts and have been back and forth on the issue.

Tomice may have a point that via mass production in one place, rather than small operations here and there, you can make more efficient use of the resources. I think a percentage type trade route like which Tomice suggested makes some sense when you look at it like this.

However, I also agree with Alpaca that I would like to be able to move production and stuff around. A solution that may be doable (you guys would know more than I) would be to allow cities to help produce a building/unit/whatever for another city, but only if a trade route exists between them. I.e., the Capital helps produces a laboratory for a newly sprung up city.

There are probably several ways of doing this (if we have the required access) - one might be a construction option something like "help Aacada". Then, whatever Aacada is building also uses the production of the city(ies?) helping it, with some loss naturally. It would make sense to factor distance into this, but I can't think how.

This wouldn't of course change trade routes per say, just require them for one city helping another, so as to what to actually do with the trade route would remain a question - perhaps move surplus food if a checkbox is ticked? Would stop the sending city from growing, though that might not be a bad thing per say.
 
I've read both of your posts and have been back and forth on the issue.

Tomice may have a point that via mass production in one place, rather than small operations here and there, you can make more efficient use of the resources. I think a percentage type trade route like which Tomice suggested makes some sense when you look at it like this.

However, I also agree with Alpaca that I would like to be able to move production and stuff around. A solution that may be doable (you guys would know more than I) would be to allow cities to help produce a building/unit/whatever for another city, but only if a trade route exists between them. I.e., the Capital helps produces a laboratory for a newly sprung up city.

There are probably several ways of doing this (if we have the required access) - one might be a construction option something like "help Aacada". Then, whatever Aacada is building also uses the production of the city(ies?) helping it, with some loss naturally. It would make sense to factor distance into this, but I can't think how.

This wouldn't of course change trade routes per say, just require them for one city helping another, so as to what to actually do with the trade route would remain a question - perhaps move surplus food if a checkbox is ticked? Would stop the sending city from growing, though that might not be a bad thing per say.

You have that already, its called "industrial development" + "purchase"
 
You have that already, its called "industrial development" + "purchase"

Heh, guess in a way that is true. Very bad returns on earlier buildings though. Also, that isn't dependent on trade routes. Guess I would prefer a more direct method, one that could also help balance against the ICS trade routes.
 
I think the core of the problem currently is that both ends of the ITR get a boost to both food and production regardless of which one is ahead or behind on those yields.

A more balanced system, I think, would be to base yields on the sender's food/production. For example, ITRs could have the option of sending an amount equal to 10% of excess food or 10% of production or 5% of each to the target city. They would get no yield in return, but mirror routes would be allowed so players can opt-in to bidirectional trade between cities at the cost of using up 2 TRs.

This would prevent core cities from buffing every other city via the return trade yields, but would still allow new cities to be helped out at least initially from the established ones. Players would have to actually decide which smaller cities get the yield boosts from the core, though.

It would also still allow the entire empire to funnel resources to the capitol to help speed up a wonder but without letting all those cities benefit at the same time.

I also think the +50% yield bonus from sea routes should just be dropped.
 
your best food city will be the fastest growing - but not for very long, as the surplus gets reduced from growth. So to maximize food trade, you need a city with very large surplus that never grows. How? by having one city specialize in food - and then only build colonists there, so city never grows but the base is high.
...'cause the trade routes aren't ridiculously overpowered enough as it is, and desperately need to be exploited even more.
 
I'm fine with internal routes giving you something and not just transferring. International trade creates energy and science out of nothing. Although that they also benefit another faction so that is a cost of sorts. However it's easier to accept profit and science in the abstract as getting more just by mixing it together with some from another city, I can't see how mixing your food with my food ends up with more food for both of us. Production is a little easier since it represents both materials gotten from mines and quarries etc and labour from factories so it does make sense that two cities could provide labour from one and materials from the other and both come out with more production. Master of Orion 3 is the phthalates game I remember that separated them so mines did nothing unless you had factories and vice versa.
Anyway, food should probably go only one way.
 
Trade definitely shouldn't be just 'transferring'. Look at today's world - part of why we're so rich compared to any previous point in history is precisely because of our ability to specialize and cooperate. 'Trade' does indeed create something out of 'nothing'. Ask Ford.

Firaxis' idiotic trade route design (and interface) needs a major overhaul and a giant smack with the nerfbat, but trade should still benefit cities on both ends. We just need them to fix the unforgivable flaws like a tiny city benefitting the larger city it's trading with more than a more developed city would and, similarly, for international trade routes, yields from a tiny hovel size 1 city should of course be much weaker than from your huge capital.
 
I'm fine with internal routes giving you something and not just transferring. International trade creates energy and science out of nothing. Although that they also benefit another faction so that is a cost of sorts. However it's easier to accept profit and science in the abstract as getting more just by mixing it together with some from another city, I can't see how mixing your food with my food ends up with more food for both of us. Production is a little easier since it represents both materials gotten from mines and quarries etc and labour from factories so it does make sense that two cities could provide labour from one and materials from the other and both come out with more production. Master of Orion 3 is the phthalates game I remember that separated them so mines did nothing unless you had factories and vice versa.
Anyway, food should probably go only one way.

Food would work the same way...once city grows oranges, the other grows broccoli

Eating a diet of both oranges and broccoli is far healthier than eating a diet of only one.

I'm fine with Internal trade being only a one way benefit

(essentially trade between cities A+B can generate X amount of output... distributing that output is the issue.. which way the trade route goes determines which way the benefit goes)
 
your best food city will be the fastest growing - but not for very long, as the surplus gets reduced from growth. So to maximize food trade, you need a city with very large surplus that never grows. How? by having one city specialize in food - and then only build colonists there, so city never grows but the base is high.


Nono. This is flat out incorrect. Larger cities grow slower because they have larger food bins, not because they have smaller surpluses. In fact, mature cities in the 15s often have extremely large surpluses if they're farm-focused.

Every citizen consumes 2 food, but every additional citizen that gets put back onto a farm creates more base surplus, not less. This is transparently because farmers generate more food than they eat, so the more farmers in a city, the more surplus it generates as it increases in size.

A size 3 city with 3 farms at +4 food each generates 6 surplus food. A size 10 city with +4 food farms generates 20 surplus food. When linked to a city that generates no surpluses whatsoever, the 10 size city will consistently generate +7 food on the route, and it'll only get bigger as the city works more food tiles or otherwise gets more food.

The incoming value is definitely not maxxed at 3. I've seen larger incoming yields than that!

It is notable to say that omniclast3 here is completely incorrect:

It seems incredibly bizarre that the yield is always given to the outgoing route, regardless of the direction of the difference in food supply. So if my 1 pop new city is sending food to 20 pop cap, it generates an insane amount of food/prod for... the cap. How does that make sense?

Not to mention the strats it seems to motivate. Here's what I propose: build three central cities and grow them big and powerful. Then build a pile of incredibly crappy 1 pop cities on the worst tiles you can find, make sure they never grow or expand borders. Buy depots and autoplants in all your crappy cities and send the 3 TRs from each of them to each of your 3 core cities. Since the larger bonuses will always go to the 3 big cities, the gap in pop will keep growing rapidly, as will the food/prod bonuses to your 3 big cities. If I may be permitted an anology... it is a free energy machine.

Makes no sense. Higher benefit should always go to the smaller food/prod city, regardless of whether it's incoming/outgoing.

If the surplus is what is counted, then it doesn't matter one whit what size the city is. What matters is how much food it's drawing from its tiles. So long as it remains food-neutral or food-negative, then the food route will always be based purely on the surplus generated by the food city, even when the sending city is size 20.

This is actually a good argument for specialization. You do NOT want to build too many food buildings in those cities not only to keep the route large, but also because you will presumably be building something more beneficial.

Likewise, a Production City will almost always be a good target for hammer-poor cities so long as they remain hammer poor. They will boost that city's production significantly, and gain no small amount of hammers in the process.

What this means is that you now have a reason to keep the food surplus in your big farm cities high even when their bins grow large enough for them to not individually benefit from the food directly - instead of assigning specialists, you distribute the food to all your other cities who will all presumably be building something other than farms.

The farm city will benefit directly from the incoming hammers and the other cities benefit by not having to work farm tiles at all, especially if they're sequentially targeted for growth by large outgoing Food Routes from the main farm cities.

So you don't need to adjust the yields manually. So long as you improve the tiles intentionally, the governor takes care of it all for you automatically.
 
Nono. This is flat out incorrect. Larger cities grow slower because they have larger food bins, not because they have smaller surpluses. In fact, mature cities in the 15s often have extremely large surpluses if they're farm-focused.

Every citizen consumes 2 food, but every additional citizen that gets put back onto a farm creates more base surplus, not less. This is transparently because farmers generate more food than they eat, so the more farmers in a city, the more surplus it generates as it increases in size.

A size 3 city with 3 farms at +4 food each generates 6 surplus food. A size 10 city with +4 food farms generates 20 surplus food. When linked to a city that generates no surpluses whatsoever, the 10 size city will consistently generate +7 food on the route, and it'll only get bigger as the city works more food tiles or otherwise gets more food.

Yes, but...
a) 4f farms? That requires Biowells or EctoPod or VertFarming. Mid-game tech at the earliest. For the first 100 turns, your best food city will have two food resources at 4f, and then grassland/floodplain farms at 3f.

b) 10 tiles of 4f farms? That's a lot of very good land. Lucky you, no hills in your grasslands or deserts in your floodplains.

c) 10 farms in a size 10 city? Is there nothing else in your city radius you want to work? Sounds like an opportunity cost.

d) A large city like that takes a while to grow too.

Better option: An outstanding 6 pop food city could easily have surplus of 10: base tile of 3f, Vivarium +2, and five farms at +1 each = 10. With good resources, you might get 12+ in the early game.

But there's no guarantee that this happy state will continue if you keep growing. So you want to keep max food surplus but throttle growth. So you build colonists here and send trade routes out. This food-centered city will also have terrible production, so the production on those routes should also be good.
 
There is 0 need to throttle growth. The food bin size will do that naturally. By the time your food city surplus is tapering, you should be in mid-game with Vert Farming or other food sources. If nothing else, Biowells allow you to work hills for production while maintaining your food surplus. Grower slots do the same thing. Your surplus will never go down so long as you always at least work a 2 food tile with each citizen.

Alternatively, you can always shift city roles if you have fast Workers. The new city gets farms and produces the surplus, the old city shifts into food/hammer, hammer, or ancillary city role with Generators or Academy spam. The old farms that formerly provided surplus for TRs will now maintain the city (which is still important) while a newer city takes over the farm bit.

You can buy Colonists with Energy, so you don't stop growing and expanding.

Better - grow them in hammer cities so it takes only a very few turns when the hammer city is out of food rotation anyway.

I honestly have no problems looking for that much grassland, especially on river starts. Maybe it's because I use Terran maps?

My main point there, being, that growth does not reduce surplus. Not having tiles to grow food reduces surplus. That's an entirely different thing.
 
Is there any indication at all that Firaxis sees the inherent problems with the trade route design or is this going to be something we depend on mods for?
 
Is there any indication at all that Firaxis sees the inherent problems with the trade route design or is this going to be something we depend on mods for?

depends on what you mean by "inherent problems".

There is no way Firaxis didn't know about the importance of trade routes - it's just too obvious. Therefore, it was a design CHOICE. It's clear to me that the designers were trying to get away from "build 4 cities and win" tall play, and they clearly succeeded. We've seen Cottage Economies, Great Person Economies, Wonder Economies, Plunder Economies, etc... They wanted an economic model that emphasized trade and that let your empire grow, shift, and react to changing circumstances. You can call the result "wide" or "spam" or "ICS"... but that was clearly the intent.

Given that, is it well balanced now? No. It needs tweaks - but small tweaks.

Expect UI fixes.
Expect some balancing to remove the worst abuses - like maybe "no-rush-buy" for trade units, or something to slow the rate the new cities get trade routes.
But don't expect a wholesale nerf.
 
I think the issue is that they tried to mix internal resource transfer and goods/concepts exchange with one mechanism.

There should be SOME creation of resources to reflect price elasticity and production cost incentive changes. If there was no increasing demand for oil driving up prices, Canada would not be able to afford to work the shale for a profit, so in effect that trade creates the PRODUCTION of the resource, not the resource itself. In game terms, this subtlety is masked by the simplified economic model.

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Moderator Action: Pre patch suffix added to title and post de-topped

I'd also suggest a fresh post on the internal trade route yields when they are discovered.
 
I'd suggest Firaxis put the formula in the civilopedia (sp?), but that seems unlikely.
 
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