interresting "terrorists" website

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

This is a Chechian website about the jihad in wel ,Chechnia.
They have a video section were you can see movieclips of the war.You can hear the Koran in realmedia.And afcourse the have on-line guides for becomming a terrorist.

http://www.kavkaz.org/

The chechnian war is afcourse something else than the "strike against terrorism (operation enduring freedom)" ,it's not seen so much in the media today.Russia was criticizd through the nineties by Western country's for it's actions in chechnia.Today ,as Russia is part of the caolition against terrorism ,chechnian rebels are considered "terrorists".and indeed ,much of the chechnian rebels were trained in camp's in afhanistan and northern pakistan ,by the pakistani intelligence agency ,the ISI.for the ISI ,it was the control over the chechnian drugs smugel route that was important.

These chechnian rebels are ,as much as al-qaida troops are ,the "modern" terrorists.They make use of modern technological equipement ,they are well educated in the arts of modern infantry warfare and have a level of experiance and veterancy the be impressed of.Furthermore ,they use a more modern kind of warfare wich they have invented ,a more un-conventual one.Assasinations ,abductions's ,terrorist asaults,... .

But the Chechnian rebels have an other enemy: the Russians.In that sence ,we care less ,because the've nevver atacked us.and thus i want to ask you all youre oppinion about them.Those who wer one year ago regarded as "modern rebels fighting for freedom agains russian opression" in the media in western nations (and politic's)

 

[G-Man]

Make Russia withdraw from most of Chechnia (except parts that are important for them like major military facilities or Russian towns) and make the Chechians stop fighting. This should be done using international pressure. The Russians wanna be a part of the west. The Chechians don't wanna be declared terrorists by the west. Therefore the western world has some power in this conflict.

 

[joespaniel]

That war is realy a quagmire for Russia. It's hard to say if the 'rebels' are actualy rebels, or terrorists.

They associate with al-Queda for training but I doubt they had any connection with the Sept 11 attack on America.

I don't know enough about the facts concerning the initial Russian military action to form an opinion. I do know both sides have inflicted great attrocities on each other, and Yeltsin lost an election to Putin mainly on the issue of the Chechin war.

Chechnian independence is probably the only answer, but I don't know if Russia, or Putin's political career are ready for that.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Well ,technicaly the chechnians are fighting a jihad,and the want chechnia AND Dagestan free from Russian.Those are the goals of their war.Now knowing the amout of oil that is ,i can think of it's importance to the western nations.

Furthermore i don't think the russian's will withdraw ,especially not in these times, considering it's part now of the coalition agains "terrorism" ,partly because of the war in Chechnia.

 

[joespaniel]

Russia has more oil in Siberia than they know what to do with.

I think its more political. Russian hardliners don't want to lose any more of their empire. You know, domino theory...

Also, conditions in Russia are horrible. A good 'foriegn' enemy is the best distraction.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by G-Man
Make Russia withdraw from most of Chechnia (except parts that are important for them like major military facilities or Russian towns) and make the Chechians stop fighting. This should be done using international pressure. The Russians wanna be a part of the west. The Chechians don't wanna be declared terrorists by the west. Therefore the western world has some power in this conflict.

And what if we implement this solution on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict too? Will you agree to it than?

The Chechens ARE terrorists, because of the residential building explosions, and all the kidnappings of civilians. If they would've attacked only the Russian Military in Chechnya, then they could be considered freedom fighters.
And this applies to the Palestinians too. While they attack the "occupation army" they will be considered freedom fighters even by me(whether they are right or not is another question), but blowing up inside discoteques(sp?) is pure terrorism.

 

[joespaniel]

Eli hit it on the head.

Theres a fine line and attacking civilians is it.

The Russian army has killed many Chechin civilians, not just from 'colateral' damage, but intentionaly. The Russians instituted terror to keep people in line.

So both sides are wrong then...Now what?

G-Man is probably right. But like I said, I don't think Russia is ready to quit yet. Maybe after the next election. Maybe not.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

The Chechens ARE terrorists, because of the residential building explosions, and all the kidnappings of civilians. If they would've attacked only the Russian Military in Chechnya, then they could be considered freedom fighters.

It has never been proven that the buidling exploisions were the work of chechens.in fact ,at that point the CIA suspected the FSB of doing the job.It was the war that came out of it that made poetin president ,Poetin was an FSB agent (ex-KGB)

the Chechen's kidnap people yes ,but not civilians ,rather russian soldiers and commanders.

They are not terrorists,but they are no freedom fighters aswel.They won't stop with only taking Chechnia.But the fact is ,they never did us harm ,and before september yhe 11th most Western country's diplomaticly supported them and condemed russian actions in the region.now they are part of that big "terrorist" group "that are a threat tho the whole civilized world".

So both sides are wrong then...Now what?

yes ,both sides are wrong then ,i agree.It is only that these Chechens have become our enemy too easy.This is what i blame our western politicians ,we are quite wrong too.There are no good sides in these "terrorist" wars at all.The western world is just not qonsequent for itself too.

This is a quote out of one of the interviews regarding the changes in diplomatic regards towards the chechens by the West.

the west has shown its hypocrisy.

 

[jedi rat]

Eli.
If you imply your equation:
killing occupying armed forces = freedom fighters
killing civilians = terrorists
I am sure that you could call 99% of all the “Great Democracies” terrorists!!! (if they do not do it today they have done it over last 50 years), so … welcome to the club of terrorists!!! hehehe

The Duck
I agree that in all this mess - we are right (good) you are wrong (bad) – both sides are to blame. That includes 99 % of conflicts… I believe.

It is sad but true that always winners in a conflict decide who is right who is wrong… I believe that where are two sides there are two stories, so if we do not listen to both of them, respect and try to understand we will never solve a problem. The question remains who has got the right to judge!?! ah…. there is a very slim chance that there is a “neutral” observer in any conflict – unless it is somebody with no money, no religion, no beliefs, no desires, no ambitions, etc.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

In any conflict, each side will always believe it's right. That's why conflicts come about and keep persisting in the fact of rationality, logic and common sense. And as conflicts prolong and casualties mount, each side will have more grieviances against the other sides. It feeds on itself.
The Chechen war is a good sign of the double-standards employed by Western govts and media. If it has nothing to do with the West, the Western govts and media will keep hammering and harping on Russia on oppression of the Chechens. Now that the terrorists had struck at the West and Russia is part of the coalition in the war against terrorism, news on that conflict has gone off and Russia is even being praised (or at least tolerated) for its role in that war.

 

[joespaniel]

Thats the nature of war. Sad as it seems, in these times you sacrifice your principles in many ways.

Russia was a "courageous ally" until Hitler's Reich was destroyed, then went right back to being the enemy.

The US will not get involved in Chechnia unless al-Queda big shots are hiding there, and even then, Russians will probably be asked to deal with them.

I'm waiting for the hammer to fall in Indonesia and the Philipines now. Assign any signifigance you want to the spy-drone shot down in Iraq as well.

Biggest WTH goes to Syria's admittance to the UN security council... :crazyeyes

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by jedi rat
Eli.
If you imply your equation:
killing occupying armed forces = freedom fighters
killing civilians = terrorists
I am sure that you could call 99% of all the “Great Democracies” terrorists!!! (if they do not do it today they have done it over last 50 years), so … welcome to the club of terrorists!!! hehehe

I meant killing civilians on purpose.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

A couple of things:
Yeltsin didn't lose to Putin; he gave the Presidency to him on 1 Jan 2000( in thanks for the 40000 bottles of vodka the night b4)
Reasons for this conflict are several:
1.) Russians don't want Chechnya to set a precedent to all their other semi autonomous republics by letting them break away
2.) It is an area of strategic and resource importance (read oil, either there, or in nearby republics)
3.) Cultural hatred. They despise one another, and have for centuries.(read serbia vs croatia, except with one side way bigger) Chechens seen as criminals, less than animals. A Russian friend of mine says the feeling among many is that they should just be wiped out. This extremism is present on both sides.

Chechens are getting help from outside Muslims, including Bin Laden, and are far from paragons, but so to are the Russians.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

to simon Darkshade:

Chechens are getting help from outside Muslims, including Bin Laden, and are far from paragons, but so to are the Russians.

Are we the West much better then?

The whole conflict is redicilous.All party's involed millitary and diplomaticly in "the war agianst terrorism" are a bunch of hypocrits.

The chechens are criminals.
Al-Qauda are terrorists.
American's and Russians are imperialists.
Europeans are complaining chicken****'s.

The European nations are always complaining ,always putting themselfs in the position of "the wise moral judge in world diplomacy".
We always criticize american foreign policy.
But if it come's to action ,it's always reliant on America's power.
That way we are merely the complaining puppy.i call that hypocrisy too.halfway 1999 the E.U decided to start building a own large european millitary ,to have a stronger position in diplomatic relations wth America.Today ,nothing has changed.We Europeans are not much less capitalists than Americas.we always take to financialy most interresting position.The E.u has to grow a stronger position for itself ,so that it can work through it's own policy ,merely than being the puppet of the U.S.A .

 

[G-Man]

I don't think the west should get too involved... Maybe the EU can just do what he does with Israel and Palestinians - always say to the Palestinians they shouldn't attack and to Israel we shouldn't retaliate. Ofcource they never understood that Israel can't afford to be a sitting duck and has to retalite. So we retalitate. And then they say we over-reacted (anything that isn't meditating is appearently over-reacting) and ask the Palestinians not to retaliate... And so thing go on and on...
But the difference is that while both Israel and the Palestinian majorities wanna end this conflict and want the west to help us in doing this, the Russians don't really want this to happen. So I say leave them alone. Unless the rebels/terrorists will help Bin Laden in Afghanistan... And then the US will send them to their new country - on the moon

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

One thing that i learned about these terrorists is that they are a strong enemy too.Do not underestimate them ,as they are quite "special forces" themselfs.

Beating the Taliban is easy.Basicly ,the taliban is an organisation full of the most illiterate koran-propangandized geezers originating mostly from the smallest unevolved towns in Afhanistan.Even there leader is a bit coo-coo.Have you seen these guys on t.v. speaking.
they are no match for us.

But Al Quada ,damn ,they are pretty hard to break.And they are pretty smart.Most of the terrorists that commited the sept. 11 crimes were pretty high educated.And they managed to stay unnoticed for years.these guys are pretty good spy's.And there combat experience is high ,most of them have fought in a lot of "jihads".the are used to handle with explosives ,operate modern weapons,make use of advanced communication methods.And most of all ,they are pretty stealthy in there tactics ,and make use of good hiding places.They are not easy to locate ,and they have the familiar terrain on there side.

the Russians have fought the Chechens for years.look how far the've gotten.Nowhere ,the conflict remains endless as it is now.
These chechens have a lot in common with Al - Quada.a lot of the Chechen rebels were trained in the Afhani and pakistani training camps.

Pakistan is becoming realy risky these days.i wouldn want to be pervez Musharev these days ,his position is not guaranteed.The I.S.I (pakistani inteligence service) ant the pakistani army are taliban and Al Quada supporters.Especialy in the north of pakistan ,there is a risk of civil war.

Also ,consider that Al qauda with it's Pakistani millitary supporters may have acces to nuclear devices.Actually ,in General ,consider that it may be easy for Al qauda to have acces to nuclear devices.

This all is just to state that we are fighting a formidable foe here ,don't underestimate them.

 

[G-Man]

They are strong, but they're few. Al qaeda has a thousand soldiers. And they don't have the equipment the US have. You can have all the training in the world and it won't help you against an apache. The problem isn't to fight them. The US can destroy the entire orgenization within a day. The problem is to find them.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

They are strong, but they're few. Al qaeda has a thousand soldiers. And they don't have the equipment the US have. You can have all the training in the world and it won't help you against an apache. The problem isn't to fight them. The US can destroy the entire orgenization within a day. The problem is to find them.

As far as i know ,there about 7000 men in Al-Qauda.3000 of them are considerd the core and have fought a lot of wars.
The smart thing for Al Quada to do is to place themselfs were apache's can't reach.And there enough places like that in Afhanistan.And the Al-quada men have stinger's.And generraly ,for an infantrist they are pretty wel equiped.
Russia has his version of the apache too.The Hind is a pretty goot combat-chopper.but they didn't succeed in eliminating the terrorist threat.

they will place themselfs in a position were they can only be combatted by infantry.Causalty's will probably be high ,even if the assault's are done by special forces.

Even 7000 men are not much ,but there are places were you can't deploy a lot of men.They will try to lure us in "bottleneck's" terrain's.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The danger now lies not in their present numbers but in how the mood will swing in the Islamic world. If the Americans killed enough civilians or caused enough unnecessary suffering and hardship, the Al whatever is going to be swamped with tens of thousands more of volunteers. Untrained maybe but fervent enough to run terrorist 'errands'.

 

[joespaniel]

Thanks, Simon, for pointing that out: Yeltsin DID retire! I forgot that. Putin was a shoe in for the next election for his hard line views. Chechnia was one cause of Yeltsin's great loss of popularity, along with the Russian economy being so bad, too.

For all you guys posting about the al-Queda soldiers, check out my Thread on Sunday about the newspaper article.