US Air Force Academy Hosted Fake Terrorists Who Are Actually Evangelical Christians?

[Leonel]

Stop me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure you can be an evangelical Christian AND a former terrorist.

 

[otago]

As far as I see it, in the immediate context, the problem is that the academy hired frauds.

In the big picture however, the problem is that the armed forces have an uncomfortably close relationship with the evangelical community, and occasionally substitute the ideology and icons of that community for cold hard facts and real experts.

Separation of church and state, one would believe that the General in command should know that fact.

I wonder where their loyalty lies, to the constitution or are they becoming god's military ?

Taking bibles to Afghanistan, not the sharpest knifes in the drawer.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Stop me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure you can be an evangelical Christian AND a former terrorist.

The part you got wrong was that they weren't "former terrorists" despite claiming they were. What you should have said is that you can be an evangelical Cristian AND a liar as well as an Islamophobe despite having been one himself. That would have been accurate...

 

[Leonel]

The part you got wrong was that they weren't "former terrorists" despite claiming they were. What you should have said is that you can be an evangelical Cristian AND a liar as well as an Islamophobe despite having been one himself. That would have been accurate...

Oh! Well in that case BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!

 

[Patroklos]

In the big picture however, the problem is that the armed forces have an uncomfortably close relationship with the evangelical community, and occasionally substitute the ideology and icons of that community for cold hard facts and real experts.

That is not the problem, that's the unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

 

[JollyRoger]

I wonder if they are being funded by bake sales and prayer meetings.

Well, they seem to be having a bad influence on some of their new religious brothers and sisters. Just look at that Christian that shot a fellow Christian in a church. Sunnis and Shia right here in the homeland.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Oh! Well in that case BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!

That's probably poetic justice for lying hypocritical fundamentalist Christians like these who engage in such rabid fearmongering. Wouldn't you say?

That is not the problem, that's the unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

Perhaps in your own personal opinion. Others in the military who are likely far more familiar with the matter disagree with that assessment. Here is the story of one such individual:

Warning: There is some rough language in the original article which I have edited it out below:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/12/13/weinstein/print.html

"These people should be court-martialed"
Former Air Force officer Mikey Weinstein says evangelicals are trying to turn his beloved military into a "frickin' faith-based initiative."
By Alex Koppelman

Dec. 13, 2006 | When a Christian group shot a video inside the Pentagon that featured uniformed senior military officers talking about their evangelical faith, Mikey Weinstein went on the attack. Himself a former Air Force lawyer and Air Force Academy grad, Weinstein, who is Jewish, is the founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. He founded the MRFF earlier this year to oppose the spread of religious intimidation in a military increasingly dominated by evangelical Christians.

On Monday, Weinstein held a press conference in Washington, D.C., to announce that he was asking the Department of Defense's inspector general to look into the video, and determine whether the people who appeared in it -- Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack J. Catton Jr.; Army Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks, the former public affairs director of the Army; and Undersecretary of the Army Pete Geren -- had violated military regulations. He also filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the government to find out who, if anyone, had approved the video shoot.

Bob Varney, the executive director of Christian Embassy, the group that made the video, tells Salon he believes no regulations were violated, and he says Weinstein's allegations about increased evangelical influence within the military are wrong.

"I don't understand how one could come to that kind of conclusion," Varney says. "The military believes in religious freedom, it offers religious freedom, it therefore offers people of different religions to express them, and we're one among a number of different religions that are working in the Armed Services."

Weinstein spoke with Salon Tuesday afternoon.

The Christian Embassy is now saying it had permission to film this inside the Pentagon. Were you surprised to hear that?

Not at all. They're damned if they do, they're damned if they don't. If they said they didn't have permission, they would have been blown away. Having permission, to me, just shows the complicity. We have a systemic problem. You sound like you're too young to remember Robert Redford in "Three Days of the Condor," but the premise of that movie was that there was a CIA within the CIA. We have a virulently dominionist, fundamentalist evangelical Christian element within the Pentagon. They would prefer this to be the "Pentecostalgon," not the Pentagon. That's what they would prefer. They're trying to turn the Pentagon into a frickin' faith-based initiative, and that is not what our military is about.

These are the people who, when I talk to senior members of the military at the flag-level rank -- I don't know if you're familiar with what that means, that means admiral or general -- that have looked at me and said, "Come on, Mikey, what's your problem? We have the cure to cancer. If you had the cure to cancer, wouldn't you want to spread the word?" They don't realize when they say it, they don't have the mental wherewithal to understand that to a person who isn't an evangelical Christian, you're calling our faith a cancer.

What's wrong with this video?

I'm trying to think where to start. It is absolutely violative of a mountain of Department of Defense internal regulations, guidelines, core values, instructions, making it very clear that members of the military can not endorse any one particular political position, partisan religious view, they can't hold up a tube of toothpaste like Colgate and push it. Irrespective of that, it's also blatantly violative of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights, and at least as important it's violative of Clause 3, Article 6 of the Constitution -- you don't even have to get into the Bill of Rights -- which states that we will never have a religion test for any position in the federal government, which was brilliantly prescient of our Founding Fathers.

This, to me, constitutes as much of a national security threat to this country as al-Qaida. In fact, the video itself, to me, would be the No. 1 recruiting tool that I would expect bin Laden, the followers of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, although he's dead, Ayman al Zawahiri, Hezbollah with Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Hamas, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, to get angry young Islamic men and women in Iran, Syria and Lebanon to join the insurrection and jihadi terrorist activities. This would be a perfect accelerant to create even further conflagration.

Now, I was a JAG [judge advocate general, the lawyers who act as prosecutors and defense attorneys within the military] in the Air Force. I spent three and a half years as a lawyer for President Ronald Reagan in the West Wing, I've been Ross Perot's general counsel. I know the religious right would love to vilify me as a tree-hugging Northern California Sierra Club membership chardonnay-sipping liberal -- not that there'd be anything wrong with that, to wax Seinfeldian -- but I'm not. I'm a Republican. And my family has a very, very long and distinguished military history. We have three consecutive generations of military academy graduates, and my youngest son, who's at the Air Force Academy now, he's a senior, what's called a first classman, is the sixth member of my family to attend the academy. We have 115 years of combined active-duty military service to this country in my immediate family from every combat engagement from World War I to the current one, and this is a pernicious torturing of what our military is supposed to be about.

Of course, I realize people have religious rights. We only have about 2,200 chaplains in each of the military branches; every base has multiple chapels, and these people can pray all they want to themselves, like kids in school can pray to themselves, but when you're in the military, and you're coming in like that one person, Catton, whom I knew when I was a kid at the [Air Force] Academy, and he goes, "I share my faith, that's who I am, and let me tell you right now, the hierarchy as an old-fashioned American is that your first duty is to the Lord, second to your family and your third is to your country." That is the exact opposite of what is taught, and for anyone who understands anything about the military, it is always the country first. When you're told, "Troopers, we're going to go take that hill," you can't stop, fall to your knees and see what your particular version of Moses, Vishnu, Satan, Jesus, Mohammed, Allah, whatever they're going to say, and then quickly make a cellphone call to your family. So it is beyond-the-pale egregious, it is a national security threat every bit as bad as al-Qaida, and these people should be court-martialed.

Forty percent of active-duty military personnel consider themselves evangelical ChristiansThe Christian Embassy is now saying it had permission to film this inside the Pentagon. Were you surprised to hear that?

Not at all. They're damned if they do, they're damned if they don't. If they said they didn't have permission, they would have been blown away. Having permission, to me, just shows the complicity. We have a systemic problem. You sound like you're too young to remember Robert Redford in "Three Days of the Condor," but the premise of that movie was that there was a CIA within the CIA. We have a virulently dominionist, fundamentalist evangelical Christian element within the Pentagon. They would prefer this to be the "Pentecostalgon," not the Pentagon. That's what they would prefer. They're trying to turn the Pentagon into a frickin' faith-based initiative, and that is not what our military is about.

These are the people who, when I talk to senior members of the military at the flag-level rank -- I don't know if you're familiar with what that means, that means admiral or general -- that have looked at me and said, "Come on, Mikey, what's your problem? We have the cure to cancer. If you had the cure to cancer, wouldn't you want to spread the word?" They don't realize when they say it, they don't have the mental wherewithal to understand that to a person who isn't an evangelical Christian, you're calling our faith a cancer.

]Your youngest son is at the Air Force Academy, which has been the focus of a lot of the allegations about evangelical proselytizing. With you being so out-front on this, has he been the target of any reprisals?

No. I think that they realize if they touch a hair on his head, I will open up the skies and bring down a hammer and tongs like they've never seen before. There have been some snide remarks, but in the main it's steady cruising.

Now, my older son and his wife have had a few things. They're both first lieutenants. In the military, you wear a name tag, and their name is Weinstein. My daughter-in-law has had senior officers walk up to her and say, "I know who you are, and I know what you're family is all about." She's a junior officer, so she just looks at them. In the main, it's been fairly calm, because they're not that stupid to think that my kids wouldn't make a phone call, and then I'm going to do what I have to do.

But I can tell you that I get -- I don't think I'm in double digits, but it started at about 10 o'clock last night; after the press conference in the morning, I've had nine death threats since about 10 o'clock last night. I usually get about two or three a week. They're very grotesque, everything from wanting to gas all the Jews in America and send the corpses back to Israel to threatening to blow me up, threatening my house will be blown up, raping my wife, blowing up my house. We've had our tires slashed, we've had feces and beer bottles thrown at the house, we've had dead animals placed on the front door of the house.

I was in Topeka, on a book tour, and the local Episcopal priest came out to support me and five hours later his church was burned down. And the local synagogue in Topeka, where I was to speak that night, was desecrated with spray paint saying, "XXXX, Jews" and "KKK," all that stuff.

So if this is a nice, Christian response, my response is take a number, pack a picnic lunch and stand in line, because we're not going to stop, we're not going to ever stop, we're going to lay down a withering field of fire and leave sucking chest wounds on these people that are trying to destroy our Constitution. This is not a Christian-Jewish issue, and it's also not a political spectrum, left or right issue, it's a Constitutional right and wrong issue. These officers, and what's happening in that video, simply by appearing in a video that is blatantly and vociferously sectarian, by simply doing three things in that video, they should be court-martialed. That would be circulating blood, reflecting light and breathing. That's all they had to do and that alone would have been enough. You're not Jewish, are you?

I am, actually.

You understand the word "dayenu"? Well, it's dayenu -- the dayenu factor is simply by letting the light reflect off you, circulating blood and breathing in that video. Everything else beyond that is extra. Dayenu's my favorite song at Passover, that's why I use it.

My response is I've given the new secretary of defense 20 days to answer the Freedom of Information Act request, which the law gives him, and at the end we intend to get as much information as we can, fashion it into a dagger and then stab at the heart of this unconstitutional, wretched, vile, darkness at the Pentagon. This unconstitutional darkness, we will stab at it with our dagger until we kill it.

 

[Camikaze]

Something tells me a student run forum is lacking the same vetting capacity as the military itself.

That clinches it! If a student run forum knows that they were fake, then the military must have known also, and went with it anyway. How deceitful.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Stop me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure you can be an evangelical Christian AND a former terrorist.

I think its that they were telling lies.

Mr. Saleem’s account of how, as a child, he infiltrated Israel to plant bombs via a network of tunnels underneath the Golan Heights. No such incidents have been reported, the academic experts said

 

[Flying Pig]

When Muslims, terrorists
When bible bashers, heroes
Try this on at Sandhurst and they would fall about with laughter.

I'm finding myself agreeing with Otago here - something's wrong . Anyway, we would invite officers that fought in counter-terrorist campaigns, not squaddies from the enemy side

 

[Patroklos]

Perhaps in your own personal opinion. Others in the military who are likely far more familiar with the matter disagree with that assessment. Here is the story of one such individual

Why would that be? I am a Catholic military officer Form. Let me repeat that for you, a CATHOLIC. The only people evangicals hate more than us are devil worshipers. On top of that I went to a Southern military college (ie BAPTIST). Despite this I have never encountered anything or heard of anything from anyone else that in any way corroborates yours story.

For any of you even thinking of taking Form seriously, I really suggest you read that article he posted. As usually he thinks he has performed some sort of coup by posting it, but also as usual it in no way supports his arguement. You will be taken aback by just how much of a non issue this is.

Form seems to think there is something wrong with people in the military talking about or even having religious views. This rather odd since whole staff corps and rates of the military comprising thousands of service members are tasked with no other role than to cater to the varied religious needs of military members. The funny thing is that despite the military having Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu and a few other chaplins serving all over the military and their number including several flag officers, none of them complain about anything Form is ranting about. But I guess all those priests and rabbis are just secret evangical agents, right? Right?

I'm finding myself agreeing with Otago here - something's wrong . Anyway, we would invite officers that fought in counter-terrorist campaigns, not squaddies from the enemy side

You should invite both. I guess you guys didn't interview any of the defeated Germany army after WWII either, right?

 

[Flying Pig]

No idea - but if they did, they would have talked to generals, who understand the grand strategy, not the enlisted men - imagine what they would get out of me if they wanted to know about our air force tactics, or you if they wanted to know about your country's employment of armoured divisions

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why would that be? I am a Catholic military officer Form. Let me repeat that for you, a CATHOLIC.

So what? He is a Jew. Let me repeat that for you, a JEW.

The only people evangicals hate more than us are devil worshipers.

I think you give yourself far too much credit, as usual. I seriously doubt you will find too many Protestants who still vehemently hate Catholics in this day and age. You are apparently living 60 or more years in the past. But that's not too surprising for a reactionary like you.

On top of that I went to a Southern military college (ie BAPTIST). Despite this I have never encountered anything or heard of anything from anyone else that in any way corroborates yours story.

So that means it didn't happen, right? So that means you are claiming he must be lying, right?

For any of you even thinking of taking Form seriously, I really suggest you read that article he posted.

Excellent advice. I bet most rational people will believe this former JAG, who actually understands the legal implications of the issues under discussion, over you who is obviously shooting from the hip, as usual, in his all-too-typical rush to hate anybody who has the temerity to disagree with him or criticize the military for obvious problems.

Himself a former Air Force lawyer and Air Force Academy grad, Weinstein, who is Jewish, is the founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. He founded the MRFF earlier this year to oppose the spread of religious intimidation in a military increasingly dominated by evangelical Christians.

Here is some more information on this clearly aberrant liar:

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/newsletters/2008-12/index.html

 

[Flying Pig]

Himself a former Air Force lawyer and Air Force Academy grad, Weinstein, who is Jewish, is the founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. He founded the MRFF earlier this year to oppose the spread of religious intimidation in a military increasingly dominated by evangelical Christians.

He's a remf - his word is worth nothing. Sad but true.

 

[Formaldehyde]

An article from his website:

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/dk_creationism.html

Again, I edited out some expletives....

Creationism: The Latest In Military Suicide Prevention

Here at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), we get countless complaints about religiously based mental health and counseling programs, which, over the past few years, have been systematically replacing proven psychological and medical approaches to a multitude of issues faced by military personnel. I've seen so many truly insane, not to mention blatantly unconstitutional, ways that the military is playing with the mental well being of our troops since I began working for MRFF that I really didn't think it was possible for me to be surprised by anything anymore. Then I was sent a PowerPoint presentation by an airman at RAF Lakenheath, the largest U.S. Air Force base in England. On the MRFF scale of classifying by various expletives the egregiousness level of things that are reported to us -- "holy crap," "holy xxx," and "holy xxx" -- this one, promoting creationism as a means of preventing suicide among our military personnel, was definitely a "holy xxx"

In March 2008, this presentation, titled "A New Approach To Suicide Prevention: Developing Purpose-Driven Airmen," was shown at a commander's call that was mandatory for an estimated 1,000 of Lakenheath's Air Force personnel, and sent out by email to the entire base of over 5,000 the following day. As the use of the phrase "Purpose-Driven" in its title implies, also incorporated into this presentation is the wisdom of presidential candidate inquisitor Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, a book that, second only to the Bible itself, is the most heavily promoted religious book in the military.

Following a slide stating, "Dr. Rick Warren’s book, The Purpose Driven Life, provides a powerful model for Suicide Prevention, developing leaders, and making troops combat ready and effective," the author of the presentation, Air Force chaplain Capt. Christian Biscotti, brings up Charles Darwin for the first time in defining what he calls "3 Levels of Purpose."

On one of the next slides, Capt. Biscotti states that if we don’t know where we came from we are lost, and that knowing where we come from is the origin of hope. This is followed by a slide comparing "Chance" and "Design," a.k.a. evolution and creationism.

And, why not work a little religious nationalism into this "suicide prevention" presentation? (I'm still trying to figure out how Capt. Biscotti came up with the notion that Charles Darwin was a leader of the former Soviet Union.)

Another segment of Capt. Biscotti's presentation, titled "FAITH is Foremost," contains three stories -- his own personal story, the story of the woman who made the news a few years back by talking her way out of a hostage situation by reading to her captor from The Purpose Driven Life, and, incredibly inappropriately for a presentation promoting religion, the story of Pat Tillman. I'm sure everyone remembers Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich's outrageous remarks that Tillman's parents' dissatisfaction with the investigation of their son's death was caused by their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, saying in an ESPN.com interview, "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more -- that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough." I'm fairly certain that the Tillmans would not be very happy to find out that their son is now being used as an example in a presentation promoting religion to the military.

The presentation ends by asking the viewer to receive their first tool, which is to "Impart Faith."

According to MRFF founder and president Mikey Weinstein, "The shocking discovery of this hideously unconstitutional, mandatory, military PowerPoint presentation, which is essentially coterminous with Rick Warren's sectarian Purpose Driven Life, takes the quintessential cake as far as magnitude of odiousness of illegality is concerned. Indeed, it is arguably not only the most prominent example in MRFF's current Federal lawsuit against the DoD of the 'pervasive and pernicious pattern and practice' of unconstitutional rape of the religious freedoms of our honorable armed forces members, but an example of the reckless substitution of religious ideology for the real professional help that could save the life of a member of our armed forces considering suicide. Bertrand Russell once sagaciously opined that very few people can be happy without hating another person, nation or creed. This 'Purpose-Driven Airmen' mandatory presentation is the epitome of military-sanctioned 'hatred of the other' and those commanding its viewing must face trial by General Courts Martial."

The entire "Purpose-Driven Airmen" PowerPoint presentation can be viewed here.

 

[Patroklos]

No idea - but if they did, they would have talked to generals, who understand the grand strategy, not the enlisted men - imagine what they would get out of me if they wanted to know about our air force tactics, or you if they wanted to know about your country's employment of armoured divisions

They did, because obviously people who have years of experiance at combat, and combat that very frequently got the best of you, can offere a perspective that you can learn from. That would be true throughout the ranks. Do you hunestly think a squad sargeant whose job it is to fight terrorists can't learn anything useful by talking with someone who was a terrorist on his same tactical level?

An article from his website:

Form, you can post from his website all you want, nobody cares. You may as well be posting from Stormfront while trying to prove the superiority of the Aryan race.

Air Force chaplain Capt. Christian Biscotti

OMG, a CHAPLAIN mentions god in a presentation!!!! How shocking!!!! A chaplain references religious material in the prosecution of his job??? INCONCIEVABLE!!!

I assume you consider the existance of chaplains all together to be the purest form of evil, right?

 

[Flying Pig]

They did, because obviously people who have years of experiance at combat, and combat that very frequently got the best of you, can offere a perspective that you can learn from. That would be true throughout the ranks. Do you hunestly think a squad sargeant whose job it is to fight terrorists can't learn anything useful by talking with someone who was a terrorist on his same tactical level?

He could, but he could also get majorly mislead; for example if he captured me I would tell him that none of the military missions I participated in involved tanks or ships, and so he would say that Britain had no tanks or ships. While there's some value in it, there's also a lot of risk.

 

[Nylan]

He could, but he could also get majorly mislead; for example if he captured me I would tell him that none of the military missions I participated in involved tanks or ships, and so he would say that Britain had no tanks or ships. While there's some value in it, there's also a lot of risk.

I don't see how that follows at all. They're not expecting you to speak for the entire nation and that is naturally going to be accounted for in any analysis of your responses.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Form, you can post from his website all you want.

Why, thank you. I didn't even realize your opinion even counted in that matter.

nobody cares.

Or that you pretend to speak for everybody else in this forum.

You may as well be posting from Stormfront while trying to prove the superiority of the Aryan race.

From someone who rarely provides URL to back up his own tinfoil hat opinions which likely come from such places, that's quite a concession on your part.

I assume you consider the existance of chaplains all together to be the purest form of evil, right?

I assume you think that repeated deliberate mischaracterization of my opinions passes for rational adult debate, right?

 

[Nylan]

Why, thank you. I didn't even realize your opinion even counted in that matter.

Witty

Or that you pretend to speak for everybody else in this forum.

Super witty

From someone who rarely provides URL to back up his own tinfoil hat opinions which likely come from such places, that's quite a concession on your part. But apparently unlike you, I don't think the "Aryan race" is superior to anybody. This forum attests to that obvious fact.

Please

A) provide URLs demonstrating these characteristics of Patroklos' personality and opinions.

or

B) Don a tinfoil hat

I assume you think that obvious and deliberate mischaracterization of my opinion on your part passes for rational adult debate, right?

See above