Ironclads now INSANELY powerful

[mackintosh]

Wasn't there a battle during the american civil war where two irnclads shot at each other for several hours until one of them ran out of ammo ? Must have been pretty frustrating. Real-life Ironcalds were pretty OP for the time.

Yep, Battle of Hapmton Roads, between the USS Monitor and USS Merrimack (aka CSS Virginia), which ended up in a stalemate. In terms of CiV, I see the ironclads as more akin to the dreadnought class early battleships than to their real-life brethren in terms of their immediate impact on naval warfare. All in all, I find them a very welcome change/addition. The introduction of the early ironclads and the very first dreadnoughts sent the world powers scrambling to catch up. We have a similar scenario in CiV too, which is simply superb

 

[Emstinson]

So I just finished my first game with Elizabeth in G&K... wow Brtiish ironclads are sickening... grab the Great Lighthouse and they keep pace with every ship out there... get a few promotions on some privateers first and those coastal cities are toast as soon as you upgrade. I love it, it almost makes me want to break my random civ only policy and try again...

 

[Kissamies]

The problem with ironclad speed is that they get 3 moves, but only pay half on coastal hexes. Therefore any bonus moves they get are doubled on coastal terrain. I'm currently playing Elisabeth myself and nabbed Babylons' Greal Lighthouse too, so they are crazy fast. I think it's a bit silly.

It would be more balanced if they got 6 moves but paid double for ocean hexes. The bonuses wouldn't get multiplied.

 

[Miravlix]

Marines are kind of useless, especially for Songhai, since the Marine's only upside is being Amphibious with Embarked Defense, and Songhai automatically gets that on all their units anyway.

No, actually they are simply twice at useful for Songhai. they get double defense.

I found that out by accident because a CS gifted me the Spain horse it get defense in water as unit and then it got defense from Songhai, attacking it was not fun.

 

[Wuddel]

Slightly OT but the Marines are relatively pointless. As are paratroopers. They have to be build from scratch (well you probalby have a Brandenburg Gate + Heroic city), have 5 combat strength less then infantry (although both are considered elite in real life), by the time they become available they get ripped apart by cities and planes. Maybe marines can get the Viking UA? Maybe even 3 movement? So they can land and attack in one turn. Kind of what amphious assault is....

Same thing with paratroopers. Why can they not attack on the same turn. Altthough I can see that being overpowered completey disrutpting frontlines and take out artillery. But they lack in comparison now. At least give them a free Drill I.

 

[Unthinking Pain]

The problem with ironclad speed is that they get 3 moves, but only pay half on coastal hexes. Therefore any bonus moves they get are doubled on coastal terrain. I'm currently playing Elisabeth myself and nabbed Babylons' Greal Lighthouse too, so they are crazy fast. I think it's a bit silly.

It would be more balanced if they got 6 moves but paid double for ocean hexes. The bonuses wouldn't get multiplied.

Thank goodness England's other bonus matters once in awhile.

 

[CYZ]

Slightly OT but the Marines are relatively pointless. As are paratroopers. They have to be build from scratch (well you probalby have a Brandenburg Gate + Heroic city), have 5 combat strength less then infantry (although both are considered elite in real life), by the time they become available they get ripped apart by cities and planes. Maybe marines can get the Viking UA? Maybe even 3 movement? So they can land and attack in one turn. Kind of what amphious assault is....

Same thing with paratroopers. Why can they not attack on the same turn. Altthough I can see that being overpowered completey disrutpting frontlines and take out artillery. But they lack in comparison now. At least give them a free Drill I.

They are pointless because they are basicly specialized infantry. This should be portrayed with promotions not with new units. In other words: these units should not exist but instead there should be a marine promotion line (starting with amfibious) and a paratrooper promotion line.

 

[Unthinking Pain]

They are pointless because they are basicly specialized infantry. This should be portrayed with promotions not with new units. In other words: these units should not exist but instead there should be a marine promotion line (starting with amfibious) and a paratrooper promotion line.

Agreed, though perhaps those promotion lines could become available after the appropriate technology is researched.

At least for Paratroopers.

 

[Montov]

Slightly OT but the Marines are relatively pointless. As are paratroopers. They have to be build from scratch (well you probalby have a Brandenburg Gate + Heroic city), have 5 combat strength less then infantry (although both are considered elite in real life), by the time they become available they get ripped apart by cities and planes. Maybe marines can get the Viking UA? Maybe even 3 movement? So they can land and attack in one turn. Kind of what amphious assault is....

Same thing with paratroopers. Why can they not attack on the same turn. Altthough I can see that being overpowered completey disrutpting frontlines and take out artillery. But they lack in comparison now. At least give them a free Drill I.

Paratrooper shoud receive an instant fortify bonus after paradrop, and Cover 1. Realism and gameplay dictate the paratrooper doesn't have the first strike, but they should be used to hold the line, so they should have defensive bonuses.

 

[Wuddel]

Agreed, though perhaps those promotion lines could become available after the appropriate technology is researched.

At least for Paratroopers.

Obviously, otherwise you would have to look out for spearman airdrops. Well amphibious is available early on. Basically CivIV style where promotions where attached to techs.

Would be a shame to loose the look of the paratroopers, though.

Paratrooper shoud receive an instant fortify bonus after paradrop, and Cover 1. Realism and gameplay dictate the paratrooper doesn't have the first strike, but they should be used to hold the line, so they should have defensive bonuses.

Yeah. Something along those lines. Cover and Drill are probably easier to handle than instant fortification.

 

[CYZ]

Agreed, though perhaps those promotion lines could become available after the appropriate technology is researched.

At least for Paratroopers.

Yes obviously, we don't want paradropping musketmen =D

I made a thread in ideas & suggestions about this idea one.

It went something like this:

* amphibious
1 - as current
2 - +25% strength when defending from attacks from the sea (ranged attacks from ships AND melee units trying to land).
3 + 2 movement and +1 sight when embarked


Paratrooper (available from flight or such)

1 Unit may drop up to 5 tiles from a city, consumes all movement.
2 unit may drop up to 7 tiles from a city, consumes 1 movement point
3 unit may drop up to 9 tiles from a city, consumes no movement points

 

[duxup]

I'm ok with Ironclads being a big game changer, you should be able to out maneuver them with frigates and bring in support to bring them down.

I REALLY like the change with mele and ranged units on the sea along with the ability to take cities. It made sea-power far more relevant to the game IMO. Maybe not ultra realistic in some ways but that's always a balancing act and previously sea power was worth squat.

 

[skallben]

However fun airdropping Chu-Ko-Nu's would be to have, I'm gonna go back on topic
Well almost, I wanna talk about Frigates. Even though the step from Caravel to Ironclad is huge, the step from Frigate to Battleship is just ridicilous. Would Dreadnoughts be a good step between the two of them?

 

[Wuddel]

I'm ok with Ironclads being a big game changer, you should be able to out maneuver them with frigates and bring in support to bring them down.

I REALLY like the change with mele and ranged units on the sea along with the ability to take cities. It made sea-power far more relevant to the game IMO. Maybe not ultra realistic in some ways but that's always a balancing act and previously sea power was worth squat.

Not sure if this was in vanilla, but Battleships have now +33% against cities making them viable even in the endgame.

 

[duxup]

Not sure if this was in vanilla, but Battleships have now +33% against cities making them viable even in the endgame.

Not sure either but yeah being powerful and different from destroyers makes them far more obviously useful.

I was thinking along the lines that melee sea units can take coastal cities now making them relevant, along with ranged units. If I have a big sea fleet I can put at least some hurt on an AI with some coastal cities rather than us just sitting off the coast taking forever to do ... anything and arrange a proper invasion.

 

[Ghonasiflaids]

As they should be.

 

[ense7en]

Ironclads are something i probably built once or twice in all my play previous to G & K.

Now i am a huge fan of them...they are absolutely beastly against coastal cities.

Frigates + Privateers and later Ironclads is just a joy to play