Ironworks, West Point, Heroic Epic

[ferenginar]

In BTS you can add a hammer producing corp into the mix, I have used mining inc to help produce level 4 battleships in one turn.

 

[madscientist]

My approach

HE + settled GG ASAP. I add West Point IF on the coast. Otherwise I will build West Point on the most productive coastal city, drop a drydock and get 10 XP naval units (with another settled GG or theocracy) off the bat.

IW I build for potential space part production and supplemental military production the HE city. SO I put a settled GG if I have an extra (not in HE or costal WP).

Globe theater I agree I am not a fan of. I know some love it for drafting but noone mentions much that the units come out with half the XP of a built unit. I generally prefer it on a border city with the hermitage which allows me to run more artists for severe cultural pressure towards an AI I would rather not fight against.

I never built the red coss much but with the need for hospitals for health in BTS I will likely build it alot more. Not sure where probably the IW city.

One additional point. If you plan early and constant warfare (I did this with Jullius and Ghengis in Warlords) build the heroic epic in the capital for mega troop production very early on.

 

[futurehermit]

The thing with drafting is it's not about xp, it's about #s. When you NEED military to keep up or when you WANT #s to overrun opponents, drafting is the way to go. The GT is KEY for this because the 3 really starts to add up in your cities very quickly.

I never thought about west point in a coastal city before. Mainly because the AI tends to be so poor at naval combat. But that is an intriguing idea.

 

[madscientist]

The thing with drafting is it's not about xp, it's about #s. When you NEED military to keep up or when you WANT #s to overrun opponents, drafting is the way to go. The GT is KEY for this because the 3 really starts to add up in your cities very quickly.

I never thought about west point in a coastal city before. Mainly because the AI tends to be so poor at naval combat. But that is an intriguing idea.

I guess i get that with drafting and I really have to learn how to do it well. I do like nationalism now with the +25% EP bonus so perhaps I'll do it in my nexy game.

As far as costal west point, workd very well with the vikings.

 

[axident]

The thing with drafting is it's not about xp, it's about #s. When you NEED military to keep up or when you WANT #s to overrun opponents, drafting is the way to go. The GT is KEY for this because the 3 really starts to add up in your cities very quickly.

I never thought about west point in a coastal city before. Mainly because the AI tends to be so poor at naval combat. But that is an intriguing idea.

It happens sometimes for me, and it ROCKS. Sometimes if I have a food-heavy, hill-heavy seaside capital I think about moving my palace somewhere else (a floodplain cottagespam land is best for Bureau), which leave my capital to be the premier HE/WP powerhouse with settled GGs and... dum dum dum DA: very highly promoted privateers, enough so that they can go toe-to-toe with frigates.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

None of the above.

My combos:
- Red Cross + West Point
- National Epic + ironworks
- Heroic Epic on a coastal city

And for the curious
- I have no clue how to use a globe theatre.

 

[futurehermit]

Seems strange to me to not have westpoint in your HE city in that case. I can see NE + IW if you are looking to farm GEs. No problem there. But I don't see why you wouldn't want to put the WP with your HE.

 

[Nials]

WP + HE is my preferred combination because then you have a city entirely dedicated to creating an army.

That frees up IW which can then be placed in another city, possibly your wonder production one.

 

[NaZdReG]

for me.. usually heroic epic and ironworks in the same city if it has enough river spots. I don't mind seperating the two wonders so I can have 2 relatively good unit producers. sometimes ironworks is tied up on expensive wonders like three gorges.

west point and red cross I try to stick in a coastal city for the inevitable use of naval units. they can produce mech infantry when not making transports and having a bunch of medic 2 units running around is damn helpful.

as for national epic.. wherever my early wonders end up if they are scientist/engineer focused or I save it and plop it down with the national park. its great to see 9-12 free specialists magnified GP production with the national epic. good times

NaZ

 

[popejubal]

Seems strange to me to not have westpoint in your HE city in that case. I can see NE + IW if you are looking to farm GEs. No problem there. But I don't see why you wouldn't want to put the WP with your HE.

I'm not sylvanllewelyn, but for me, the reason why I don't put West Point in the HE city is that I don't want to give up the HE's unit production capability. I want to keep on cranking out units while I'm building West Point, especially since I am often building West Point at a time when I very much want those units so that I can go to war.

Now, I could certainly dedicate another city to unit production while the HE city is building West Point, but the HE city is about twice as efficient at building units at that point as any other city and it will ususally have a settled General for the extra 2 XP. That 2 XP is huge since it gets me my second promotion and I rarely play with Agressive leaders.

1 city builds West Point.
HE city builds 5 XP units.
1 or 2 more cities build horse units with a Barracks and Stables.

That way, I can have a nice selection of appropriate units that each have the very valuable second promotion without having to mess with civics. I'll often never build stables in the Heroic Epic city since other cities are entirely capable of producing quality horse units while the Heroic Epic city is best used for Melee and (especially) Siege units.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm not sylvanllewelyn, but for me, the reason why I don't put West Point in the HE city is that I don't want to give up the HE's unit production capability.

There's some math to be done here; but it's got a lot of variables (how many XPs are you getting from civics, where are your generals and military academies, how much more valuable are units now vs units later....)

 

[axident]

None of the above.

My combos:
- Red Cross + West Point
- National Epic + ironworks
- Heroic Epic on a coastal city

And for the curious
- I have no clue how to use a globe theatre.

Sometimes I'll hear that some people put Red X with WP which makes little sense to me unless you absolutely must have a Woody III, Medic I or II unit and are piling all your GGs there too or something. Unless you are going for that, why would you want your MEDICAL units to have the most xp? Aren't they supposed to be last-ditch defenders of a stack and not the first ones targeted? Unless you blow those extra xps on stuff like sentry or the aforementioned Woody promos?

 

[Gocho]

WP+HE+academy+settled GG's always for me as well, allows a city to do nothing but produce units all game.

 

[vicawoo]

Stables only cost 60, certainly worth a knight or a cavalry in most situations.

 

[Quornix]

Sometimes I'll hear that some people put Red X with WP which makes little sense to me unless you absolutely must have a Woody III, Medic I or II unit and are piling all your GGs there too or something. Unless you are going for that, why would you want your MEDICAL units to have the most xp? Aren't they supposed to be last-ditch defenders of a stack and not the first ones targeted? Unless you blow those extra xps on stuff like sentry or the aforementioned Woody promos?

Because when you are producing all of your good units with at least Medic 1, you don't have medic units as last-ditch defenders. It's a free promotion, so there is no XP cost, and no reason not to have it on every unit you can. They may well wind up on their own without a healer.

Personally, I go with two truly focused cities:

HE + GGs early, usually in my capital. If necessary, I'll put the IW here if production isn't really up to snuff in the later game.

I want to get level 4 units out of it as soon as possible. This gets me one thing I desperately want: CR 3 units; and I want as many as I can get.

They're the bread and butter of an attack, and with more settled GGs on the AI's side, rather than Warlords, it's not uncommon to find CG 3 units defending cities (to say nothing of the Native Americans, where CG 3 is a given), making for more churn on these units. CR 3 has essentially gone from "great" to "essential".



Later, I get WP + RC in my highest production coastal city (often a capital captured in the midgame where there are already one to three GGs for free)

I produce my elite units here. I put enough GGs there to get level 5 units, if there aren't already (once the 4XP from WP is factored in). A CG 3 + Medic 2 unit is nice to have in each important city, or each city you plan on conquering. Combat 4 or Drill 4 anything are VERY useful, and in particular, make for an awesome navy. And while it doesn't get a lot of love, I like March a lot, and only needing one promotion rather than three is damn helpful.

I'm less worried about production here (although I want as much as possible), because I'm already cranking out CR 3 tanks and artillery at the HE city. This city is producing those niche units that are otherwise hard to make.



Any other GGs start working to make another level 4 production location. And it's easy enough to get level 3 units out the gate in every city with one of (Vassalage, Theocracy, Pentagon) for CG 2 defenders, or Combat 1 + X units.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

What's the word on Globe Theater + Red Cross, drafting medics? Do the drafted units get the promotion?

 

[Oko]

I'm lazy, as in I rarely bother with any of these specializing wonders.
An oversight, I know.

When I do, though, I most commonly build HE and IW in different cities. Usually both have settled GG's in 'em.

 

[axident]

Because when you are producing all of your good units with at least Medic 1, you don't have medic units as last-ditch defenders. It's a free promotion, so there is no XP cost, and no reason not to have it on every unit you can. They may well wind up on their own without a healer.

Personally, I go with two truly focused cities:

HE + GGs early, usually in my capital. If necessary, I'll put the IW here if production isn't really up to snuff in the later game.

I want to get level 4 units out of it as soon as possible. This gets me one thing I desperately want: CR 3 units; and I want as many as I can get.

They're the bread and butter of an attack, and with more settled GGs on the AI's side, rather than Warlords, it's not uncommon to find CG 3 units defending cities (to say nothing of the Native Americans, where CG 3 is a given), making for more churn on these units. CR 3 has essentially gone from "great" to "essential".



Later, I get WP + RC in my highest production coastal city (often a capital captured in the midgame where there are already one to three GGs for free)

I produce my elite units here. I put enough GGs there to get level 5 units, if there aren't already (once the 4XP from WP is factored in). A CG 3 + Medic 2 unit is nice to have in each important city, or each city you plan on conquering. Combat 4 or Drill 4 anything are VERY useful, and in particular, make for an awesome navy. And while it doesn't get a lot of love, I like March a lot, and only needing one promotion rather than three is damn helpful.

I'm less worried about production here (although I want as much as possible), because I'm already cranking out CR 3 tanks and artillery at the HE city. This city is producing those niche units that are otherwise hard to make.



Any other GGs start working to make another level 4 production location. And it's easy enough to get level 3 units out the gate in every city with one of (Vassalage, Theocracy, Pentagon) for CG 2 defenders, or Combat 1 + X units.

I would up the difficulty level if you can get away with just 1 city producing all of your units with Red X + WP as a combo. The HE/WP and Red X/Ironworks combos are gold standards for a reason.

 

[Quornix]

I would up the difficulty level if you can get away with just 1 city producing all of your units with Red X + WP as a combo. The HE/WP and Red X/Ironworks combos are gold standards for a reason.

Did I say that just one city is producing all my units? Well, I guess I did imply it in the lead-in, but my real point was "What's wrong if every unit has Medic 1, as long as it doesn't cost you XP?"

By the time that WP becomes available, I ought to already be cranking out CR 3 units at the HE using Barracks + GGs + 2 (usually Theocracy); if not, I've probably been going light on the warfare. By running Theocracy, of course, any city with a barracks can give me a shock X-bow, a CG 2 Longbow, or an accuracy or barrage cat/treb, or even an inferior CR 2 mace.

Once the HE can produce CR 3 melee units, I don't want it to stop until I can't build melee anymore -- I want as many CR 3 infantry as I can get. And honestly, I don't need my CR 3 units to start with Combat 1 as well. I'll promote them along that line after their battles.

I just don't see how putting WP in with the HE does much good. You're already getting diminishing returns on XP, and since the HE comes so early, you've probably found a better production site, which may come with a free GG or three (and possibly a military academy as well), as a gift from the former owner. So I set up a second high-end military city with WP, which, once it becomes available, will also get the Red Cross. Since it's going to be producing the "special" units for the most part, it can afford to take the turns off to build the RC.

With this setup, it makes more sense to have the HE city to keep cranking out CR 3 whatever (maces, cannons, artillery, tanks) as the assault force, and the WP city to build the more interesting units (which the RC helps with significantly) and military navy, while any other cities are producing the cannon fodder, the soft defense, and the galleons and transports.

If the HE city seems to be struggling to produce a unit every turn or two, I'll throw the IW in while the only thing it can produce at CR 3 or Barrage 3 is siege. Otherwise IW winds up being mostly for wonders and upgrading my defenses. And if I really just need more CR 3 units, I'll go ahead and make some with WP/RC, and give 'em march.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Why Red Cross and Heroic Epic in the same city?

Because my favourite promotion in the entire game is MARCH. Medic III GG's are good, but when you can use that benefit on the move, without stopping your stack to heal in a city under riot and have it bashed by CRIII enemy units, you're well on your way to becoming a true warlord.

As for why Heroic Epic on a coastal city, lemme ask this question: how often do you get a production powerhouse that also happens to be on a coast? You'll need a navy, big-time, and I don't want to build a drydocks in every coastal city, because they've got low production and some other stuff to build too, to take advantage of trade routes. Having a naval production centre is harder than a unit producer in my experience.