Is AI really brain dead?

Okay, the reason why I think tactical combat isn't important for civilization games is because it's a strategical game. I'll compare this game to Age of Wonders to explain the difference.

In civilization, the map and the turn times are all strategical. You build a unit in a few turns and a city centre is one tile. In the time you do a tactical manouvre, a lot of things happen like building things or researching new techs. An archer in this game can actually shoot all the way to the other side of a city.

In age of wonders, the map and turn times are split up between strategic and tactical. Once you enter battle, you dive into a tactical map where you spend 10-20 turns fighting between armies. Units have interesting abilities, walls are part of the tactical map and battles are really well done. As soon as the battle is done, you go back to the strategical map.

And this is why I think tactical combat isn't important for civilization games. I really really do want there to be strategical decision making. Using chokepoints, defensive positions, flanking enemy armies and using the proper unit types. But you don't need the tactical 1UPT to achieve that. You can do that with stacked armies as long as you properly balance out big stacks or limit stacks to something like 4 units. By simulating combat between stacks, archers can still behave completely different to cavalry or melee units and chokepoints still matter.

More importantly, it's a way to do combat that doesn't completely gimp the AI. Having such a terrible combat AI makes the rest of the game (you know, the strategical aspect) a lot less enjoyable. In essence you get a strategy game where the tactical aspect ruins the strategical aspect.
 
The only gripe? Well.. :

From a thread in the bug reporting forum:

S.

Awesome, a picture without context. Care to expand on the scenario there?

See, this is what I mean by "Analyse the behavior", that image doesn't actually say anything without understanding what the AI was trying to accomplish at the time. All you've got is a picture of the AI doing something weird.

I suspect that the AI could post pictures of you doing something weird.
 
Awesome, a picture without context. Care to expand on the scenario there?

It's not my screenshot, but here's the link to the thread in question ... title says it all.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...-lot-for-my-allys-units.601424/#post-14520585

This happened to me in virtually every game I played on non-island maps as well. AI spams a gazillion units and floods my lands with them for no real reason - other than them needing map-space to park those units, I suppose.

S.
 
Big problems with the AI are also due to big problems with the balance. Maddjinn already confirmed that many AI problems are due to the way the technology tree looks, and changing the tech tree (as he did) has a huge effect on the AI behaviour.

Same goes for that picture. It's weird that the AI just spammed chariot archers and turned your realm into a parking lot right? Except it's not. With the civic that makes unit maintenance 1 gold less, those chariot archers don't cost any maintenance at all. If they'd be promoted to Knights, they would cost 2 mainenance per unit. So essentially, there's no reason to not mass those chariots and keep them around unpromoted. It's actually a good tactic by the AI. They're behaving pragmatically.

That's a problem with the game being very unbalanced right now and bad AI is partly (but definately not entirely) a symptom of that.
 
It's not my screenshot, but here's the link to the thread in question ... title says it all.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...-lot-for-my-allys-units.601424/#post-14520585

This happened to me in virtually every game I played on non-island maps as well. AI spams a gazillion units and floods my lands with them for no real reason - other than them needing map-space to park those units, I suppose.

S.

Thanks for the context, so potentially an issue in the way the AI interprets Alliances or in how it determines military strength, is it just taking advantage of a large piece of empty safe space to park units while it builds more?

People have a tendency to pick on the outcomes of behavior rather than to understand the decision making process. Interestingly, someone else in that thread has pointed to it being an issue with the alliance mechanics. So either the AI is defending the player cities as part of their own interests, or it's parking. The question is why, not simply that it shouldn't.

It shouldn't obviously spam your land like that, but if the behavior that's driving it is that in an alliance the AI puts a couple of units in allied territory to respond to an attack, then it makes sense, it's just overzealous.
 
I suggest you guys add +4 to the default number of civs for any given map size. Of all the games I've started so far, I've seen a trend of AI seeming more competent when there is more competition.

Yes, that's probably because with more civs on the map, there is less space for barbarians. AI was never able to deal with raging barbarians like the ones we got here on Civ 6.

So your advice is probably good, just add more civs on the map until the AI gets better, you'll get better results.
 
But in response to the original question, of course it's brain dead, you were expecting what? Skynet and Joshua in some AI deathmatch? No 4X game I've played has AI that can reasonably take on a human without being given fairly substantial bonuses to it's ability to play the mechanics. In all honestly, I'd be worried if any developer could release a game that had human rivaling AI and often that does come down to the fact that the basics of the game are very complex and therfore extremely hard to balance correctly, but they are in fact possible to do with enough understanding of the behavior.

Some things need fixing as they're a little silly. But it's only through analyzing the behavior that you'll get a solution. Immediately pitching the current model overboard and dialing back isn't fixing, it's just rolling back. I for one would rather that we armed them with the information they need to improve upon the machine behavior, if I want to roll back to earlier versions which performed more to my liking, then it's really up to me to break out the discs.

Hey there mate. Im a diehard CIV fan since CIV1. If i had never played CIV4, i wouldnt have the expectations i have now for this new CIV. Those were the days m8.. Smart AI i tell you with those stacks of doom, it would be an achievement to win @ IMMORTAL level.

You surely can imagine the disappointment to win immortal domination in my 1st civ6 game, right?
 
The most frustrating thing here for me is that it should've been very doable for the devs, with all the time, money & people, to create a competent AI for Civ 6.

I mean, modders (in their spare time, with significant less time, money and people) have been able to rework the AI in Civ 4 and 5 so that the AI has become competent, good or even great. So why the f*ck couldn't the devs have done the same for Civ 6? After reading on Ed Beach's life and work before the release I was optimistic that he'd ensure a competent AI, but I'm bitterly disappointed. I hope that at least they'll release the code soon so the modding community can start doing what the devs obviously aren't willing or able to do...
 
You may be overestimating the resources available for production of Civ 6. The game industry is notorious for underpaying and overworking their employees.
 
Even with todays Technology it's impossible to make the AI feel better, or as good as, the one in Civ4. The reason is too many gameplay features that requires real intelligence to master. But in multiplayer it can be great fun.

Throwing Money on the problem won't help much. One Unit per Tile has to go, that would help tremendously for AI programming.
 
But even with 1UPT, you can teach the AI to, I don't know, attack? Even in Civ5, the AI understood that invasions include attacking and pillaging. In Civ 6, only barbarians seem to do it.
 
The AI has no problem with the religious game. The AI has been really good at spamming apostles and converting my cities.

As for 1upt combat, I think people underestimate the complexity. With 1-2 units, it is easy but the more units you have the more difficult the path finding problem becomes, especially with the new movement rules. Heck, even I as a smart human, have sometimes had trouble moving my units efficiently because when I moved one unit, it accidentally blocked my other units from moving up to the front line. And path finding is not static. As you move each unit, you are changing the tiles that other units can move to. The AI spams units so it cripples itself in terms of being able to move all those units in a coherent manner.

One good solution would be to modify the corp and army system to allow different types of units. So you could merge a melee unit with a ranged unit to create a "super unit" with both melee and ranged. And if you up the limit so that you can merge up to 4 units together, you could essentially have mini stacks. This would make it easier for the AI while avoiding stacks of doom.
 
Is AI really brain dead? - NO

I play me first game on Emperor-level.:queen: and 100 % I am sure the AI is intentionally clumpsy.

The AI is not bad because they just spare me from doom. This is programmed:borg:

In my game America begins a Blitz attack on my Civ. They had a lot of horsemen units. Five horsemen moved into my land and surround my swordmen with Sun Tzu as General. this is a brilliant movement but why then no horsemen is attacking Sun Tzu and switch off my best unit?
In the next turns of the war my archenemy Egypt takes lineup with lot of units at my north border far from America away. Cleo could easily take my hole empire because I am totally busy to defend my south border against America. But then Egypt calls all units back! They spare my Civ from a future in servitude:love:

It was the second moment after the mystical rescue of Sun Tzu that I think to myself thank you masters of the AI for spare me a bitter defeat in my first game. That is so nice because it takes me so many hours by now and it would be very frustrating to lose the first new game after few days playing.

This kind of programmed warfare is designed for sure to not frustrate the king-level player playing Emperor-level. I am sure if I had lost Sun Tzu I had take a break from playing for some days.

The AI is much smarter than it acts and that is because there are some rules programmed to spare the human player and give him fun while playing and not frustration.:D sometimes this fun making rules showed to obviously and the human player finds out and feels
before munded. That´s what you can call "brain dead" because you can´t imagine that the AI don´t want to win the game but wants to entertain you.:popcorn:
 
Thanks for the context, so potentially an issue in the way the AI interprets Alliances or in how it determines military strength, is it just taking advantage of a large piece of empty safe space to park units while it builds more?

Which leads to the question why the AI even spams so many units. I get why an unsettled island with a barb camp on it will be swarming with barbs if you leave it alone for long enough: Barb camps do one thing, which is spamming barbarians. But a Civ should be required to use its production for other things as well (buildings, workers, projects). So having both the civs and city states spam units non-stop doesn't seem to make too much sense to me. Perhaps the devs have overdone it WRT production bonus for AI-civs? Which shouldn't even matter in my case, since I haven't played any game higher than "King"-difficulty.

Plus: I've encountered that behavior in games where I had no alliances going. If I had open borders with someone they would use my lands as a parking lot. If I didn't have open borders, they would park their stuff all around my borders - even though they were friendly towards me and never declared war or anything. So I doubt that alliances are the culprit here. Besides: City states also spam units like mad and they can't even enter "real" alliances.

The screenshot that I uploaded further up in this thread (Cleo's scout-party) leads me to suspect that the AI is stupidly and needlessly wasting its ("artificially" cheap) production to produce one unit after the other. Perhaps because that's default behavior when they don't have anything else to build and they can't handle the more complex aspects of building up their cities, so they automatically revert to producing units?


And finally this behavior is simply annoying as hell, because it results in those units blocking my path or - worse - closing off bottlenecks.

S.
 
Last edited:
@Manifold I can only hope you're being sarcastic because if you're serious, I don't even know where to start... Difficulty levels are there for a reason. If I want to play without challenge, I can play on Settler. If that kind of behavior was displayed on Settler, it would make sense. On King or Emperor? Not so much. Imagine that you're a boxer, and every opponent shows you they *could* beat you but then they let you knock them out. Would you feel a sense of accomplishment from such a fight? You wouldn't.
 
AI is really terrible when it comes to war. Harald declared war on me by surprise, and then only sent a couple of scouts and a warrior to attack me. I then conquered most of his empire. Tomyris sent a huge army of horsemen to attack a coastal city of mine, but then just left them embarked next to the city whilst I bombarded them. I also fought a war against Barbarossa when he was trying to capture a poorly defended city of mine, but continually retreated and then moved in again, never actually attacking my units, giving me time to build up a better defence.

AI also forward-settle cities in terrible provocative places- Tomyris settled a city right next to my two largest cities on the three tiles I did not own on the island. Her capital is no where near this city, and with only three tiles it has has very little potential for growth. I think she just wanted to use this city to give her a foothold ear the centre of my empire which she wanted to conquer, but the AI incompetence meant that she did not even use this effectively.
 
AI also forward-settle cities in terrible provocative places- Tomyris settled a city right next to my two largest cities on the three tiles I did not own on the island.

How did I put it in the other thread?

The AI behaves like a driver who rear-ends another car and who then blames that car's driver for his own smashed-up front-end.

In my first game, both Sumeria and Arabia settled right at minimum distance from my border and then one of them constantly freaked out because his city kept getting "pressure-flipped" to my religion over and over and the other complained endlessly about my troops (not much more than a city garrison in my border-town) being too close to his border.

At least in Civ V, the AI would only settle towards your empire if they were planning to go to war with you. Or during the later stages when some ICS-crazy leaders would regularly plop down cities anywhere on the map where there were some free tiles left.

S.
 
Last edited:
so i haven't touched civ series in a loooong time, not since the disaster that was Beyond Earth.

i broke my own rule about not playing any new game until it's been out for six months for bug fixes, just because the initial reviews by everyone seem to be so good....and i sort of regret it now.

just to get a feel of the game mechanics, i played on Prince as Sumeria. the game mechanics were fun but the game was one huge snoozefest. i wasn't declared on the entire game, the biggest threat were from barbarians everywhere...and by the time I got to the Information Age, there were still civs using WARRIOR units. the next closest civ was using field artillery and musketmen and knights.

the average civ was at the crossbowman level.

i literally picked up all but 2 wonders and by end game i was just pressing "next turn next turn" as fast as i could to win the science victory.

bottom-line, started out fun and then for some reason the AI just decided not to modernize units or do anything really. i declared war on my next door neighbor china, i ended up taking half its territory while its army just walked around, sometimes attacking sometimes not.

i kept on getting denounced but nothing happened.
 
I don't think the AI is that bad. I'm having a hard time on Prince. But I am not a hardcore min-maxer and never went past Monarch on Civ 5.
 
No, the AI is just plain dead. Every time I start a new game a random AI dies in <70 turns.

Just had an AI be defeated at turn 47 on emperor, I think it was on its own island with a city-state + barbs and the barbs alone killed it. :lol:
 
Back
Top Bottom