Is bankrupting onself to mainta a standing army routine on Emperor?

[steveg700]

I'm playing my first emperor game in earnest. It started out promising and has basically gone down the poop chute. Here's the issue in a nutshell: I'm going into negative GPT constantly maintaining a standing army that's still fewer in number than the armies the enemy seems to be able to maintain. I wind up looking like a tempting target, so I'm getting constant DoW's. The first came from Napo early on, followed ten or so turns later by Theodora, then ten or so turns later by Nebby, and meanwhile Genghis has been running away with the game and is now turned his eye for conquest up me. And I can see Nebby's feeling emboldened as well, sticking some of his stupid archers under my capital..

I'm fairly confident I could withstand both assaults despite Genghis being ten or so techs ahead of me, but it just doesn't feel worth it. It'll just be constant assaults. I won't be able to mount an offense starting grabbing cities because I'm stuck on the defensive on all sides. Not without a larger army, anyway, which I can't afford. Being stuck on the defensive means everything comes slower. Buildings get cranked out slower, roads to create trade routes come slower, expansions comes slower. I don't like playing on islands by myself, but maybe this map too much the reverse.

I've uploaded the game for anyone who wants to take a look. I've got defender of the faith, but it seems buggy and prone to not giving the bonus consistently, even with the same bowman standing in the same spot two turns in a row (scope that out for yourselves). I also have holy warriors, which has helped me shore up numbers when needed. Not sure what I could've done better, other than roll up a random map that had a few more rivers, because the cash-and-resource-lite land is likely my biggest problem.

EDIT--Played a few more turns. I though Nebby's empire was pretty small, but he apparently has more production going on than I thought. His invasion force is probably even better than Genghis's.

 

[steveg700]

Here are screenshots of the mysterious "now you see it, now you don't" Defender of the Faith bonus. The composite bowman never moves, yet still receives the bonus against one enemy one turn, but not on another the following turn.

 

[chazzycat]

Genghis being ten or so techs ahead of me

I think thats your problem right there, it's tech, not army upkeep. if your units were up to date with Genghis then they would cost the exact same maintenance but your power ranking would be much higher (hence you wouldn't be as attractive as a target)

 

[Halcyan2]

Here are screenshots of the mysterious "now you see it, now you don't" Defender of the Faith bonus. The composite bowman never moves, yet still receives the bonus against one enemy one turn, but not on another the following turn.

Maybe there is a 2 tile range for ranged targets? (For melee units, the range is inherently obvious, but maybe ranged targets need to hit a target in range rather than be in range just themselves)?

In the first picture (with the bonus), both the Composite Bowman and the Keshik are two tiles within a friendly city with the religion.

In the second picture (without the bonus), the Composite Bowman is still two tiles within a friendly city with the religion, but the Keshik is now three tiles away.

I'd suggest you experiment and see if the target of the ranged attack also needs to be in range of the religious city. If that is so, then you simply forgot to factor in La Venta (which has your religion).

 

[steveg700]

I think thats your problem right there, it's tech, not army upkeep. if your units were up to date with Genghis then they would cost the exact same maintenance but your power ranking would be much higher (hence you wouldn't be as attractive as a target)

Thing is, I don't actually have that big of an army. I think it's something like:

3 Comp bowmen
5 Pikemen
2 Swordsmen

My tech problems are more a symptom than the disease. Only with Genghis was my enemy ahead of me in tech.

 

[steveg700]

Maybe there is a 2 tile range for ranged targets? (For melee units, the range is inherently obvious, but maybe ranged targets need to hit a target in range rather than be in range just themselves)?

In the first picture (with the bonus), both the Composite Bowman and the Keshik are two tiles within a friendly city with the religion.

In the second picture (without the bonus), the Composite Bowman is still two tiles within a friendly city with the religion, but the Keshik is now three tiles away.

I'd suggest you experiment and see if the target of the ranged attack also needs to be in range of the religious city. If that is so, then you simply forgot to factor in La Venta (which has your religion).

I think you're right. The enemy probably has to be the one in friendly territory.

 

[chazzycat]

ok i looked at your save this time

one of the main reasons you are struggling is because your cities are so friggin far apart. I can understand why you did that - they are the best city spots available. but they are so spread out and so you are forced to keep a separate army to defend each one. At the same time, it's crippling your economy. your roads are costing more than your trade route income....not good at turn 185. man if you didn't have cerro de potosi you'd be screwwwed (even more)

couple things that stood out to me:

1) no national college on turn 185, and no universities? maybe I was right after all...
2) your choice of religious beliefs beyond the pantheon is somewhat suspect. I think you would have been a lot better off with tithe and religious texts/itinerant preachers to get your economy going a little.
3) likewise with the policies. it looks like you are mixing honor & liberty but missing some of the best policies in both...not sure what's going on there. always finish liberty!
4) weird choice of city location for Cardiff. It looks like you sacrificed a LOT just to get that extra 1 faith point. you can't get those 2 crabs now, or at least not without conquering cape town. And it's so far away...

with this map I think honor would have been a good choice from the beginning. I would have stuck to 2 cities in the Edinburgh/Dublin area, with Dublin 1 tile to the southeast. you'd lose 1 faith, but Dublin is in desperate need of food. you'd have more river, plus faster access to the deer. the other cities are just not worth it...too far apart and just not that great land. Since you have 5 luxes between 2 cities, you can build up your cities and have some happiness to spare for your conquests. build a pict/catapult/comp bow army and go get some puppets!

 

[CornPlanter]

It certainly cannot be a routine, given that I have never experienced it and I am a rather newbie in Civ5 and even more newbie in G&K. You are most definitely doing something very wrong with your economy.

 

[Slvynn]

You even do not have proper road system for trade routes. Those are necessary for healthy economy.
and, what others said.

 

[rsadiwala95]

Here are screenshots of the mysterious "now you see it, now you don't" Defender of the Faith bonus. The composite bowman never moves, yet still receives the bonus against one enemy one turn, but not on another the following turn.

defender Of Faith: +20% strength When Fighting Units near a friendly city following this religion....in 1st screenie the keshik is in range of CS....in 2nd its not....

 

[AiTenshi1]

It's not routine if you are careful in managing your economy, but that can be tricky from time to time (but still very workable in most any situation). Religion can help but you have to choose beliefs that match your strategy or the result will just be conflicts (e.g., Tithe means plan for lots of followers and play accordingly to get the best results).Puppets with TP farms fix a lot of economic problems as well as some others.

 

[steveg700]

ok i looked at your save this time

one of the main reasons you are struggling is because your cities are so friggin far apart. I can understand why you did that - they are the best city spots available. but they are so spread out and so you are forced to keep a separate army to defend each one. At the same time, it's crippling your economy. your roads are costing more than your trade route income....not good at turn 185. man if you didn't have cerro de potosi you'd be screwwwed (even more)

couple things that stood out to me:

1) no national college on turn 185, and no universities? maybe I was right after all...
2) your choice of religious beliefs beyond the pantheon is somewhat suspect. I think you would have been a lot better off with tithe and religious texts/itinerant preachers to get your economy going a little.
3) likewise with the policies. it looks like you are mixing honor & liberty but missing some of the best policies in both...not sure what's going on there. always finish liberty!
4) weird choice of city location for Cardiff. It looks like you sacrificed a LOT just to get that extra 1 faith point. you can't get those 2 crabs now, or at least not without conquering cape town. And it's so far away...

with this map I think honor would have been a good choice from the beginning. I would have stuck to 2 cities in the Edinburgh/Dublin area, with Dublin 1 tile to the southeast. you'd lose 1 faith, but Dublin is in desperate need of food. you'd have more river, plus faster access to the deer. the other cities are just not worth it...too far apart and just not that great land. Since you have 5 luxes between 2 cities, you can build up your cities and have some happiness to spare for your conquests. build a pict/catapult/comp bow army and go get some puppets!

Thanks for stopping to take a look. I appreciate your time!

Regaring religion: I went with Papal Primacy with the thought in mind that with all the nearby maritime and mercantile city-states, I'd be saving money in the long run by making friends of them through religion rather than gold. And I guess since I almost always pick Tithe, I was looking for an opportunity to try something else. I guess I should have stuck with looking to my immediate needs. I think the reasons behind Holy Warriors and Defender of the Faith are somewhat self-explanatory, and they certainly haven't been useless.

Regarding Cartiff: The thing I really wanted, was the iron and the river tiles. Getting down there to the water for the crabs would mean being stuck with a bunch of tundra instead. The three-forest arragement was just extra incentive. Moreover, its placement would still allow me to get the crabs later by settling the one tile between Cartiff and Cape Town and dropping boats (if there's a settler in that save I gave you, that's where he's headed).

Regarding universities: Hadn't even unlocked eduction yet. Trying to maintain the lifespan of Picts (and generate a bunch for later upgrades) means not rushing to Civil Service and obsolescing them. So, I gambled on swordsmen instead, and it didn't pay off (without sending out settlers).

Pretty surprised to hear you say the other cities weren't worth it. I actually think the various lands had good stuff. Barringer crater, multiple irons, dyes, silver, stone, oases. If I didn't take that stuff, the other civ's would have, and then where would I be? Stuck with two cities and smothered by enemies. Cities are pretty good at providing extra defense on their own with some walls built, making expansion one of the better ways to protect a capital. Unfortunately, I had trouble with getting workers built in a timely fashion, and then had trouble building roads without my workers getting captured.

You even do not have proper road system for trade routes. Those are necessary for healthy economy.
and, what others said.

Well, two of the five are fairly recent settles. But the bigger problem is that when I have constant wars going--and not the kind where the AI is just calling me names from a distance--that kinda interferes with tile improvements.

In general, the need to grease the wheels of the war machine killed a lot of the woulda coulda shoulda's. I also got beaten to some critical wonders by a turn or two (Petra being the real killer), so that's just wasted time. Not sure if I should assume that early in an Emperor, I'm only going to get wonders that other civ's aren't prioritizing.

In general, I'm wondering if I should just assume that on Emperor, everyone's super-hostile and have the bonuses on production and gold to back it up.

 

[chazzycat]

I hear ya...its always easier to see mistakes in hindsight. Obviously papal primacy didn't work out too well but I can understand why you tried it.

its not that they are bad cities...its just they are too far apart. They would be worth settling eventually once you have killed the nearby AI. As it is, your empire is just too hard to defend.

 

[Calouste]

Thing is, I don't actually have that big of an army. I think it's something like:

3 Comp bowmen
5 Pikemen
2 Swordsmen

My tech problems are more a symptom than the disease. Only with Genghis was my enemy ahead of me in tech.

You need more ranged units, less melee. On defense, melee units are mostly there to occupy rough terrain and slow the enemy down with their zone of control while ranged units and cities fire at them.

 

[steveg700]

I hear ya...its always easier to see mistakes in hindsight. Obviously papal primacy didn't work out too well but I can understand why you tried it.

its not that they are bad cities...its just they are too far apart. They would be worth settling eventually once you have killed the nearby AI. As it is, your empire is just too hard to defend.

Yeah, Genghis was somehow able to ally himself with city-state after city-state in rapid succession. Again, I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing I should expect at Emperor difficulty, and that's the real question I'm looking to have answered. I am not an early-rusher, or an aggressive player at all if I can help it. I go most games without issuing a DoW. So maybe I'm just setting myself up to be frustrated by how this difficulty setting and the AI's edge on production, science, gold, etc. will empower it indulge its covetous bullyboy tendencies? Normally, I'd have enough standing forces to deter any but the earliest warmongers (who ultimately fail anyway), but they'd be affordable. I wouldn't have to go on the attack just to justify the army's expense.

Or maybe it's just this map.

You need more ranged units, less melee. On defense, melee units are mostly there to occupy rough terrain and slow the enemy down with their zone of control while ranged units and cities fire at them.

Normally, that's the advice I would follow, but we're talking about the Celts. Pikemen are upgraded Picts. And they were pretty much my saving grace against the cataphracts and keshiks, and the only thing close to a prayer I'd have against Genghis' lancers (my comp bowmen do, like, 15 points of damage to them).

 

[Piousflea]

From my own experience on Emperor and Immortal, the most important thing is to get ahead in science. Doesn't matter if you are going for spaceship, cultural, or domination victory. The moment your science is even slightly behind the AIs you are dead meat.

With a science advantage you only need a few units to win wars by a tremendous margin. For example, two gatling guns + city defences will hold off a crazy amount of keshiks and longswordsmen. As a side bonus your units will rapidly gain massive EXP. A level 8 gatling gun in the midgame might as well be a Giant Death Robot. (at least on defense - they will still get shredded by garrisoned walled cities)

In contrast, the moment an AI manages to get a significant edge in military technology, they will use their superiority with extreme prejudice. AIs are very oppurtunistic, if an AI calculates that it can take your cities without losing too many units, it'll DoW you no matter how friendly or peaceful it previously was. It is no fun trying to hold off Knights with Composite Bows, or Great War Bombers with Cannons and Riflemen. With the AI's unfair production bonuses, it's an exercise in futility.

 

[steveg700]

There's a lot of truth to that. I rolled up another game with another garbage map. Sweden and Carthage were my neighbors on a small continent. Of course, Sweden made a rush for pikemen while I went swordsmen, which gave them a strength edge when he inevitably marched his army over to my territory. Once again, I was hovering around 0 GPT, even though i'd connected my cities with roads and built markets.

Was able to crank out units rapidly enough to wipe his army out, and am now trying to mount an offensive. Not sure how things are going to go once he starts cranking out his UU's.

Seems impossible to beat the AI to a wonder without a GE.

 

[Holy Crusader]

You were weak in terms of your army so that tends to get DoW by itself, but idk how close to your enemies you were settling.

In terms of economy, you probably should use religion to help with that. Using it for combat strength or faith gaining, is useful, but if economy is your problem, use it to help with that. If your economy is bad already when you settle a new city, just build markets/banks, and then walls/castle and other maintenanceless stuff until you know you can sustain other buildings. Because with multiple newly settled cities it starts to add up when you have new structures built every other turn. Also don't connect your cities with roads until they are big enough, 3-5 pop depending on how far away from trade network they are.

How were you attempting to win this game when you started?
Can't be conquest if your not going to be aggressive.
Can't be diplomatic if you don't have an economy.
Can't be scientific if you are 10 techs behind and delaying on learning education.
Cultural?

Idk, but either way, focus more on science on every game. Delaying education intentionally is just going to have you fall behind rapidly, even if you were ahead to start with. And if your behind on techs, your probably going to be behind on when you start building wonders, AI already is going to have an advantage in that, but learning techs after they do will make wonders impossible, w/e GE.

Before you expand, make sure you can handle the unhappiness and your economy each time.

 

[King_Course]

Thanks for stopping to take a look. I appreciate your time!

Regaring religion: I went with Papal Primacy with the thought in mind that with all the nearby maritime and mercantile city-states, I'd be saving money in the long run by making friends of them through religion rather than gold. And I guess since I almost always pick Tithe, I was looking for an opportunity to try something else. I guess I should have stuck with looking to my immediate needs. I think the reasons behind Holy Warriors and Defender of the Faith are somewhat self-explanatory, and they certainly haven't been useless.

Regarding Cartiff: The thing I really wanted, was the iron and the river tiles. Getting down there to the water for the crabs would mean being stuck with a bunch of tundra instead. The three-forest arragement was just extra incentive. Moreover, its placement would still allow me to get the crabs later by settling the one tile between Cartiff and Cape Town and dropping boats (if there's a settler in that save I gave you, that's where he's headed).

Regarding universities: Hadn't even unlocked eduction yet. Trying to maintain the lifespan of Picts (and generate a bunch for later upgrades) means not rushing to Civil Service and obsolescing them. So, I gambled on swordsmen instead, and it didn't pay off (without sending out settlers).

Pretty surprised to hear you say the other cities weren't worth it. I actually think the various lands had good stuff. Barringer crater, multiple irons, dyes, silver, stone, oases. If I didn't take that stuff, the other civ's would have, and then where would I be? Stuck with two cities and smothered by enemies. Cities are pretty good at providing extra defense on their own with some walls built, making expansion one of the better ways to protect a capital. Unfortunately, I had trouble with getting workers built in a timely fashion, and then had trouble building roads without my workers getting captured.


Well, two of the five are fairly recent settles. But the bigger problem is that when I have constant wars going--and not the kind where the AI is just calling me names from a distance--that kinda interferes with tile improvements.

In general, the need to grease the wheels of the war machine killed a lot of the woulda coulda shoulda's. I also got beaten to some critical wonders by a turn or two (Petra being the real killer), so that's just wasted time. Not sure if I should assume that early in an Emperor, I'm only going to get wonders that other civ's aren't prioritizing.

In general, I'm wondering if I should just assume that on Emperor, everyone's super-hostile and have the bonuses on production and gold to back it up.

I took a look too, and man...

You can't have everything on the map, and your city placement is a strategic (and economical) disaster. You defend every point being questioned here in your post, and I don't think you should do that, simply because you won't improve if you do not realise that the points mentioned are all correct, and you are making mistakes. You have a deficit, and one worker trying to build a 9 tile road to the west, and 2 workers trying to build another just as long road to the south.

The reason you get so many wardecs early, is because you place cities right next to the AI. On a large map you have plenty of time to get your act together before the A.I. come calling. But with your strategy you seek trouble out, and can't handle it when you basically initiate it yourself.

On your map, I would have gone north and west of the mountain there, settling beside the mountain. 4 tiles between second city and your cap, just reaching the sugar 3 tiles out. This basically to let the third city get the goodies. Then to the east on the river, grabbing the salt and the wine and the natural wonder, 3 tiles away from second city. If Byzantium was looking to take those tiles, switch second and third city around.

Iron I would have attacked and taken Zurich, it's close by and has all you need for a good while. It would be 4 tiles away from one of my cities.

I could now connect with roads and make gold.

Also, on Emperor, the science techs are mandatory, not a choice.

Go for lux techs, then reading. Go for Iron, then National college. Go for Petra or steel or what you think you will benefit alot from, then education. If you do not go for education straight away.

When I play I make 100's of gold pr turn, defend safely with much less troops than you have, and see my pop and science flourish. You gotta keep it much more tight, and if there's some far of spot you absolutely must have, then realise you will have to take the city that the AI will have placed there, by the time your borders come close.

Play a game where you don't allow yourself to settle a city further than 4 tiles away from the previous, and force yourself to research tech skills first and foremost and prioritize building the science buildings. And of the 3 starting policies, you really should aim to finish one fully, not half of 2 of them.

 

[Calouste]

There's a lot of truth to that. I rolled up another game with another garbage map. Sweden and Carthage were my neighbors on a small continent. Of course, Sweden made a rush for pikemen while I went swordsmen, which gave them a strength edge when he inevitably marched his army over to my territory. Once again, I was hovering around 0 GPT, even though i'd connected my cities with roads and built markets.

Was able to crank out units rapidly enough to wipe his army out, and am now trying to mount an offensive. Not sure how things are going to go once he starts cranking out his UU's.

Seems impossible to beat the AI to a wonder without a GE.

Last night in an Emperor game I build Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Petra and the Pyramids. Granted, my capital was stuck on size 4 for quite a while while it was working mines, but it is doable.