Is bankrupting onself to mainta a standing army routine on Emperor?

Yeah, Genghis was somehow able to ally himself with city-state after city-state in rapid succession. Again, I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing I should expect at Emperor difficulty, and that's the real question I'm looking to have answered. I am not an early-rusher, or an aggressive player at all if I can help it. I go most games without issuing a DoW. So maybe I'm just setting myself up to be frustrated by how this difficulty setting and the AI's edge on production, science, gold, etc. will empower it indulge its covetous bullyboy tendencies? Normally, I'd have enough standing forces to deter any but the earliest warmongers (who ultimately fail anyway), but they'd be affordable. I wouldn't have to go on the attack just to justify the army's expense.

Or maybe it's just this map.
Oh the map is a big factor. It's not an easy one...like I said the good city spots are just too far apart. Generally you want at least 4 good cities close together in a defensible area to go for a peaceful VC. I also prefer to play peacefully whenever possible...but if the map forces your hand, you gotta recognize.
 
I took a look too, and man...

You can't have everything on the map, and your city placement is a strategic (and economical) disaster. You defend every point being questioned here in your post, and I don't think you should do that, simply because you won't improve if you do not realise that the points mentioned are all correct, and you are making mistakes.
Again, thanks a lot for taking the time to look and comment.

Although I explain the reasons why I did things, that's not really a hard-headed rejection of advice. All points are considered. I made choices to address certain critical issues, and if someone says I should not have made that choice, then there's a question of how that critical issue is supposed to be addressed. I do have to weigh every response with a certain degree of skeptical objectivity because:
A) it's made with the benefit of hindsight and assumptions about how the order of things played out (see below),
B) there can be a tendency in these type of threads not to give the advice-seeker the benefit of the doubt; immediate tactical needs are weighed against immediate strategic axioms (like picking sopols that will help you in the here and now versus picking one that one won't but will inch you closer to finishing the tree), but nobody else can be aware what the former were without psychic powers,
C) I'm aware that most people have a more cavalier attitude towards initiating attacks (for instance, you would have taken Zurich),

EDIT--I suppose I also dove into Emperor with a spirit of experimentation. That's not respected by a lot of folks because their inclination is to find a formula that works for them and they naturally gravitate to it, hoping to refine it a little bit more each playthrough. If you experiment, you might incure "disaster" or "botch it big-time". Having said that, there's certainly a lot to be said for learning form other people's successes.

Case in point:
You have a deficit, and one worker trying to build a 9 tile road to the west, and 2 workers trying to build another just as long road to the south.

The reason you get so many wardecs early, is because you place cities right next to the AI. On a large map you have plenty of time to get your act together before the A.I. come calling. But with your strategy you seek trouble out, and can't handle it when you basically initiate it yourself.
I did not receive early wardec's because I sought trouble out, although I can see why you it would look that way in hindsight. I stayed at two cities for a long time (which largely contributed to my science predicament). Nebby's capital is right under me, which made our conflict inevitable. Byzantium spammed settlers up to my second city. Napoleon crossed that massive desert to bring an army to my doorstep. I didn't settle near him until after his generous peace treaty. That was an impulse settle, just to keep him from settling across that river and having an easier jump at me. Probably shouldn't have bothered, but then again it didn't become a source of problems either.

As for the long roads, I intended to plant settlers on the way. Basically, set up a perimeter at the juicy spots, then fill in.

I actually continued the game for a while, and was able to fend Genghis off. The real crippler was simply that Genghis was clearly snowballing into an unstoppable monster, and the other civ's seem as unwilling to cross a snow monster on Emperor as they are on any other difficulty.

The advice you and others have given about science is pretty much my big mistake. Even with the Pictish Warrior, it's simply not worth it to keep going down the iron/workshop branch in lieu of Civil Service and Education. With good tech, I could remain small and protect my borders. I'd probably start to get smothered by the other empires throwing settlers more aggressively than me and claiming prime real estate, in which case I'd have to abandon my predilection to avoid warmongering and take them out. There's just no place for a pacifist on this map.

The other biggie is that I would have been much better off with Tradition. The vexing thing about Liberty is that there's nothing in it that boosts income, and simply settling a lot of cities doesn't ensure a healthy economy unless there's a lot of good gold tiles to be had. Trade routes alone don't generate enough income to offset building maintenance, much less unit maintenance. Tradition, OTOH, has two good policies for upping gold income.

Btw, if somebody's interested, I have an early save that I can post.
 
Last night in an Emperor game I build Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Petra and the Pyramids. Granted, my capital was stuck on size 4 for quite a while while it was working mines, but it is doable.
That's encouraging.
 
I'm fairly confident I could withstand both assaults despite Genghis being ten or so techs ahead of me

If the AI is 10 techs ahead of you on emperor, gpt is not the problem. You botched the early game. Big time. Retrace your steps and try to find out what went wrong.
 
If the AI is 10 techs ahead of you on emperor, gpt is not the problem. You botched the early game. Big time. Retrace your steps and try to find out what went wrong.

Oh, I have some pretty good notions of what went wrong. Without the wherewithal to rushbuy troops because of gold problems, Napoleon's giant early rush put me into unit production mode. Which created a spiraling GPT problem and kept me from building library, national college, etc. Also, went down the wrong path and got to Education way too late. The safe move would have been to rush somebody early (like a CS) and I didn't.

I'm just playing different games now for a 100 turns or so to see if I can find an "Emperor style" of play that's to my liking. If I don't enjoy it, back to King I guess. Not the end of the world.

My basic concern right now is that there may simply be non-optional tactics that I simply don't want to do, like following the same formulaic pattern of research every game.
 
You seem to be really hung up on doing something different for the sake of it. Even at deity there are plenty of different ways of playing the game but on all levels there are some basic things you do need to do.
 
That's encouraging.

You can definitely wonderspam with just 3-4 comp bows as defense, on Emperor.

But at some point, you'll want to take out your immediate neighbor for good.
 
- before getting comfortable on a difficulty level, place your cities tight, I'd say a gap of 4 hexes should be a maximum. This is both for defensive and commerce GPT purposes.
- aim for rivers and growth rather than resources. Once you hit renaissance, you'll start feeing the difference in your favor.
- resources are not worth it, even a unique luxury, if you are constantly forced to throw units at a city just to defend it.
- to keep up in tech you need good population levels, universities and FRIENDS. Don't underestimate the power of research agreements. Again, a city that didn't capture 3 resources, but is built in a fashion that turns your neighbour into a friend rather than an enemy is worth more in the long run.
- swords make terrible defenders in large numbers. You're better off with a few pikes and more horsemen/knights. Your goal is preservance, and mounted units excel at staying alive. Ranged units, composite bows, crossbows, gatling guns, complemented by mounted units are the strongest defense (it obviously also depends on terrain).
- tradition policy tree is great for making your early army maintenance easier to manage. I'd suggest going tradition when you up a diff level until you feel comfortable with experimenting with full liberty and honor.
- if under truly great pressure, build FORTS ADJACENT to your cities. Forts compensate for a full era difference at defense. There is no unit until riflemen that can "dig out" a pikemen from a fort, at least not in one attack.
 
- before getting comfortable on a difficulty level, place your cities tight, I'd say a gap of 4 hexes should be a maximum. This is both for defensive and commerce GPT purposes.
- aim for rivers and growth rather than resources. Once you hit renaissance, you'll start feeing the difference in your favor.
- resources are not worth it, even a unique luxury, if you are constantly forced to throw units at a city just to defend it.
- to keep up in tech you need good population levels, universities and FRIENDS. Don't underestimate the power of research agreements. Again, a city that didn't capture 3 resources, but is built in a fashion that turns your neighbour into a friend rather than an enemy is worth more in the long run.
- swords make terrible defenders in large numbers. You're better off with a few pikes and more horsemen/knights. Your goal is preservance, and mounted units excel at staying alive. Ranged units, composite bows, crossbows, gatling guns, complemented by mounted units are the strongest defense (it obviously also depends on terrain).
- tradition policy tree is great for making your early army maintenance easier to manage. I'd suggest going tradition when you up a diff level until you feel comfortable with experimenting with full liberty and honor.
- if under truly great pressure, build FORTS ADJACENT to your cities. Forts compensate for a full era difference at defense. There is no unit until riflemen that can "dig out" a pikemen from a fort, at least not in one attack.
This all seems like very solid advice. Forts do get short shrift.

I'm in another Emperor game now where I pretty much have my pick of victory conditions (although Theodora is sitting on tens of thousands of gold). I have indeed built the majority of the game's wonders. Things like picking Tradition over Liberty really helped. But turns out the main thing was *not* being in a spot where I'm the most delectable target for four different civ's lol.
 
I think in future games, if you want to go a peaceful route, you prob need to look at better suited civs. The Celts are fun and I enjoy playing them, but their unique attributes lean more towards aggression. Early iron free units that get a bonus outside of friendly territory...buildings that give you happiness to expand and conquer more easily...and settling near forests for faith means you dont have to build shrines and can put time into units. If you want a passive religious civ, Ethiopia or the Mayans may come easier to the way you like to play.

All that being said, listen to the advice about city placements. From looking at your save file, I think you put your cart before the horse a bit. If you expanded towards those great city spots with other cities first, and used your religion to mitigate the unhappiness, you would of wound up with more cities, a strong economy, and a better defense. Not every city needs to have 6 different types of bonus and lux resources. Sometimes a city on a river with a little food is all you need. The Celts are great for wide expansive empires with lots of cities. Use their strengths to your advantage.
 
I think in future games, if you want to go a peaceful route, you prob need to look at better suited civs. The Celts are fun and I enjoy playing them, but their unique attributes lean more towards aggression. Early iron free units that get a bonus outside of friendly territory...buildings that give you happiness to expand and conquer more easily...and settling near forests for faith means you dont have to build shrines and can put time into units. If you want a passive religious civ, Ethiopia or the Mayans may come easier to the way you like to play.
??? :confused: ???

The Celts are perfectly suited for peaceful victory, notably cultural. It should go without saying that religion can help a cultural victory, and their UB is a culture building. The Picts run around slaugthering barbarians (hopefully for a grateful CS). I used them to great effect this way in my second Emperor game. Was able to get oral tradition, cathedrals, and pagodas before anyone else got a say in the matter. Boffo culture. Highly recommended.
 
Im sensing a common element in your replies. You want other peoples advice, but cling to your own ideas too tightly. I understand wanting to defend your ideas, but I think you should try to let go of a few notions and it will improve your play.

You are right, religion DOES help a cultural victory, however any civ can get that bonus from religion. The Celts advantage is they can generate faith, without needing to build shrines. This means the piety tree, the key point to a cultural VC on imm/deity, is actually a waste of SPs for them. You are missing the true power of this civ. Why build shines when you can build a settler and settle a city near a forest? Why build shrines when you can build 3 pictish warriors and go harass someone? This lends itself to aggressive and expansion WAY better than to a peaceful path.

Lets look at their UB, the Opera House replacement. It is a cultural building....but with happiness on it. Very nice, but small peaceful empires rarely need that happiness, especially religious civs with pagodas and whatever other happiness beliefs they can get. So what good is a cultural building with happiness on it? Another way to generate happiness for a large expansive empire. It doesnt add any more culture to the city than a normal opera house, other then the small bonus from happiness.

Im assuming you won cultural peaceful VCs on lower difficulty levels, and while thats fine...any civ can win those regardless of their abilities. Its only on the higher difficulties you need to fine tune and max every advantage.

You simply arent min/maxing right now...and that isnt bad...you dont have to if you dont find it fun. However if you want to get the most out of your civ, then lining up their strengths with a certain type of victory is a much more efficient way of winning.

The Celts advantages are being able to generate faith by expansion and building military units, while getting a bonus building to get that large empire happy. Stacking religious beliefs that accent these strengths will get you farther. Try stacking the happiness beliefs and seeing how large you can make it. Stack Just War and spam your neighbors with missionaries with all the extra faith you can generate and get huge attack bonus'.

I totally get wanting to play peaceful, there are just better suited civs for it. On King and below...any civ can obtain any VC with ease. Dont let that lead you to believe any civ can do the same things at a higher level.
 
You are right, religion DOES help a cultural victory, however any civ can get that bonus from religion. The Celts advantage is they can generate faith, without needing to build shrines. This means the piety tree, the key point to a cultural VC on imm/deity, is actually a waste of SPs for them. You are missing the true power of this civ. Why build shines when you can build a settler and settle a city near a forest? Why build shrines when you can build 3 pictish warriors and go harass someone? This lends itself to aggressive and expansion WAY better than to a peaceful path.
Well, I never said anything about taking the piety tree or building shrines and temples. Piety is no longer a must-have in its current form for a cultural victory.

I got most of my faith and culture from a combination of wonders, oral tradition, cathedrals, pagodas, CS's, and golden ages. The picts also did a great job farming barbarians for easy, early faith and CS influence. I didn't build shrines until later in the game, and don't think I ever built temples. And I took rationalism because of how vital the pursuit of science is. It was an excellent little snowball. That's just empirical evidence.

You accuse me of clinging to my ideas too rigidly. In actuality, I consider all points, but subject them to scrutiny. I feel like it's rigid to think in terms of mutual exclusivity and a single effective strategy. I've built a large empire with the Celts already. The extra happiness from the UB can help an empire expand, sure, but it can also help a small empire rapidly accrue golden ages, which boost culture and more. If one took piety, surplus happiness would also translate directly into culture. That's not being stubborn or defensive, just accepting prima facie evidence.

I appreciate the viewpoints. Sorry for the "backtalk". Please don't get the belt. :)
 
I've been reading this thread. Lots of useful tips here, which I'm thankful for. I've found emperor to be very tough for me, usually with very early DOWs and not much of an army to defend my cities. I think I've been placing my cities too far away (generally to grab as many luxuries and the best city spots I can find). Guess I should try placing the cities closer together.

4 spots away seems really close though for city placement. I'm so used to Civ 4 where city placement seemed a much easier science, at least to me.
 
Defgarden said:
I've been reading this thread. Lots of useful tips here, which I'm thankful for. I've found emperor to be very tough for me, usually with very early DOWs and not much of an army to defend my cities. I think I've been placing my cities too far away (generally to grab as many luxuries and the best city spots I can find). Guess I should try placing the cities closer together.

4 spots away seems really close though for city placement. I'm so used to Civ 4 where city placement seemed a much easier science, at least to me.

Remember that up to population around 15 your cities even at a gap of 3 won't feel crowded, partly because two citizens will go into universities, partly because your borders will grow "wider" since borders will overlap.
 
superfeds has some good points about culture vic for the Celts. Sure you COULD do that, and be totally fine on the middle difficulty levels, but other than cathedrals, converting faith to culture is not the most efficient way of going about it. On immortal+ you would struggle with this strategy. I have won a totally peaceful game as the Celts on King, but even though I won pretty easily, I didn't have the feeling that it would work on the higher levels.

The pict is the best part of the Celts IMO. Getting faith from kills is huge and is their biggest advantage - you want to build a lot of them and clear your continent by the middle ages before pikemen go obsolete. The more you fight the earlier you get your religion enhanced and the faster you spread.

The UB is nice, but it's just a fact that warmonger games are in more need of happiness than peaceful culture games. The culture you get from extra happiness is generally not very signficant since it's never subjected to multipliers. Sure you might get a golden age a little faster, but that is not nearly as big of a boost as it provides to a warmonger. Happiness is vital to sustain prolonged conquest.

Regarding piety, IMO is pretty important for culture, its tough to pass up 33% in wonder cities and 10% reduction in policy costs. But perhaps the more important goal is finishing freedom ASAP for all those landmarks you should be building.
 
Remember that up to population around 15 your cities even at a gap of 3 won't feel crowded, partly because two citizens will go into universities, partly because your borders will grow "wider" since borders will overlap.
Speaking for myself, the sense of being crowded has to do with whether or not there are actually enough good tiles clustered together to support a clustered empire. On this map in particular, there was a whole lot of "meh" nearby.

Regarding piety, IMO is pretty important for culture, its tough to pass up 33% in wonder cities and 10% reduction in policy costs. But perhaps the more important goal is finishing freedom ASAP for all those landmarks you should be building.
Freedom, absolutely. Piety has to justify passing on rationalism. Just being able to buy a few scientists with surplus faith is pretty huge. And I'm not a big fan of hoarding GE's to spread wonders around different cities just to maximize that one policy's multiplier.
 
steveg700 said:
Speaking for myself, the sense of being crowded has to do with whether or not there are actually enough good tiles clustered together to support a clustered empire. On this map in particular, there was a whole lot of "meh" nearby.

Freedom, absolutely. Piety has to justify passing on rationalism. Just being able to buy a few scientists with surplus faith is pretty huge. And I'm not a big fan of hoarding GE's to spread wonders around different cities just to maximize that one policy's multiplier.

I was speaking in general. I can't see images or load saved on iPad :)
 
You wouldnt really have to hoard them. A lot of cultural VCs go OCC...but really you arent talking about more than 4 cities for most serious attempts and even thats iffy. Getting 4 wonders in those cities is not hard.

On a cultural VC you end up teching just as hard and fast as in a science one. Once you get ahead, you can find wonders to cherry pick easily. You can hard build them, and use GA to hit a golden age or just set a city to make a GE.

As for your original point, you have a ton of helpful info in this thread to improve your current and future games. What you do with it is really up to you at this point.
 
Speaking for myself, the sense of being crowded has to do with whether or not there are actually enough good tiles clustered together to support a clustered empire. On this map in particular, there was a whole lot of "meh" nearby.


Freedom, absolutely. Piety has to justify passing on rationalism. Just being able to buy a few scientists with surplus faith is pretty huge. And I'm not a big fan of hoarding GE's to spread wonders around different cities just to maximize that one policy's multiplier.

just curious if you're going rationalism in a culture game, what policies are you taking after tradition? or are you mixing liberty with tradition then going straight to rationalism? to me it seems like the 10% reduction in policy cost is worth beelining, but I could be wrong. haven't tried a rationalism/culture game yet. As far as hoarding GEs, thats not necessary, just build one of the lower priority wonders. Since you're typically playing a tall empire for culture, all cities should be well developed and able to build at least 1 wonder.

I also love rationalism in most of my non-culture games for buying scientists. But you really don't need as many scientists in a culture game. compared to other victory types the important techs are much earlier in the tech tree, and since you should be peaceful, there should be plenty of opportunity for RAs to get you there.
 
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