Is Civ 5 really "being dumbed down"?

That's funny, because in my games I had complete control over them since I knew exactly how the borders would behave. That way I could do a quick calculation on how many turns it would take for the borders to expand to a certain tile and place my cities according to that.

A fat cross that expands in a pre-determined way is not AI, it's just game rules. However, once the computer begins to do calculations on what option that will suit you the best, you lose control.

That's a pretty loose argument. It's not like the AI is going to expand to bad tiles in lieu of good ones. The AI will get resources first, then tiles that give something the city lacks (Like production if the city has no hills at the moment), then by how easy the tile is to acquire. It's not like tile acquisition was even important in civ, since it only took 10 culture to get access to every workable tile barring enemy culture. In Civ 5 it'll take many turns to expand fully unless you buy tiles or get culture-producing buildings. That sounds much more complex to me.
 
That's a pretty loose argument. It's not like the AI is going to expand to bad tiles in lieu of good ones. The AI will get resources first, then tiles that give something the city lacks (Like production if the city has no hills at the moment), then by how easy the tile is to acquire. It's not like tile acquisition was even important in civ, since it only took 10 culture to get access to every workable tile barring enemy culture. In Civ 5 it'll take many turns to expand fully unless you buy tiles or get culture-producing buildings. That sounds much more complex to me.

The slow expansion rate makes it even more important to be able to choose. For example, I'm guessing that many times you'd want to to expand in a straight line to be able to block your opponents. But instead, the AI is going to pick a worthless hill tile for you because you're low on production.

Also, what happens if a resources is a few tiles away? Will the AI expand in a direction that eventually will give you an iron source, or will it pick the best tile currently available? As you realise, it's not always that simple. I'm guessing that this will cause a lot of frustration for many players.
 
You can always buy tiles - you have complete control that way. In the 2K demo, which was played sloppily since he was showing stuff and not optimizing at all, he had 200g at about 35 turns, with tiles costing 50 or 100. Seems like you can easily afford a tile you just can't live without. In his later Japan save he was making 35gpt in what I'd also consider a suboptimal empire because he was so busy warring his infrastructure and expansion had suffered. With 35gpt, 50g for a tile is nothing.

I really don't see the argument on this. It's a gameplay mechanic and design decision that not one reviewer or person who's played the game has commented on negatively - or commented about at all because I think it's a nonissue some people are freaking out about without actually experiencing it.

Probably wanna play before getting to upset over this, IMO.
 
It should be dumbed down a bit from Civ4 as we all know that by medieval times you end up spending far too much time micro-managing your cities. However the last thing I want to see is it go too far the route or Revolutions. Rev was far too easy of a game and didn't allow much deviation in strategy game to game. In the same breath though, the precise micro-management that I am capable of doing in Civ4 (especially in higher difficulty levels and multi-player) meant the difference between getting a tech first or beating everyone else to a wonder, or even spamming great people.
 
In combat, they made the system better, more complex. Then, they tampered with the odds and took away as much depth as they had just added. Just as they did with combat, they added complexity to many aspects of the game, then took that complexity away from some other aspect. It wasn't "dumbed down," but it didn't add to the complexity and depth of the game, either, which, IMO, is hurtful to gameplay. The complexity will have to be returned to the game via mods.
 
Anyone who truly believes it is 'dumbed down' and turned off by such wouldn't be in this forum right now. All that we have here are fans.

Hardcore fans are the harshest critics. We like the game, but we see many more things that we want to improve than casual players do.
 
Anyone who truly believes it is 'dumbed down' and turned off by such wouldn't be in this forum right now. All that we have here are fans.

I don't agree. A forum full of yes men/women and sycophants does neither Firaxis nor these forums any favours.
 
Anyone who truly believes it is 'dumbed down' and turned off by such wouldn't be in this forum right now. All that we have here are fans.


Hell no we ain't. I'm not buying the game. I'm just here to whine and help others.
 
Com'on guys, off course its dumbed down :) for a plethora of reasons, starting with the fact they don't want to lose (read scare away) the revolutions crowd. This killed the SimCity franchise in the end, lets see how they fare with such approach.

However I doubt it will be dumb in the end, when exactly did you get the "right" Civ game on initial release? Most of the cooler stuff about Civs came in expansion packs (two as rule of thumb), starting long time ago with the Civ2. So my guess a lot of features we are missing will make their way in through expansion packs for more dough. They do need to offer you something so you would pay for it, if nothing else then by taking stuff away from original release.
 
The Law of Fan Reaction to Sequels:
" All sequels will generate discussions on whether or not the product is dumbed down "

The Law of Forum Opinion Prediction:
" If the subject is in any way pessimistic about the outcome of the game, they will declare it is dumbed down. If the subject is in any way optimistic about the outcome of the game, they will declare that it is not dumbed down "

What do these two laws tell us? That for all the talk of "dumbing down" there is simply no objective standard for saying so... especially prior to release.
 
It's not. Combat will be a lot more interesting in this game, no doubt about it.Because you can never make a bad decision, only a less good decision. In earlier games, you were often forced to change back and forth. This option will technically still be there, but very few people will actually fill out two tree that cannot be activated at the same time. So basicly, once you pick the upgrade, you won't have to worry about the policies until you get another upgrade.
In earlier versions of the game, you could always switch back, and you were always going to unlock all of the possibilities eventually. Now you have a limited number of number of choices over time, and you decide how many there are going to be by deciding how many resources you are going to divert into culture, and how many cities your empire will have. To me, this sounds a lot more complex. Social policies are basically like the tech tree. Of course, all techs are useful, but if you choose the wrong focus, or if you can't keep up with the neighbors, you're out of the game.


I don't know exactly how much the the trade routes will yield in this game, but let's say that you build six road tiles to connect two cities. The trade route may just cover that expense... But other than that, the roads only makes your units go faster. The point is, if you don't want to go to war, there will be no point of building roads.

Though I applaud the fact that they now cost money, I can't see why the removed the resource connecting ability. I hated when the barbarians destroyed the road that lead to my only iron mine, but that was still a very tactical part of the game.
Well, maybe you'll want to be able to defend yourself with a small amount of units. And if roads initially lose money, they become a skill test: Instead of blindly using roads like before, you will now have to know when roads become profitable. And if you don't place them right, you'll make them too long which costs you money. Some players wouldn't care about a handful of gold per turn, because they won't buy tiles anyway, but I thought such decisions would suit your style.

Also, now that you won't have roads to your resources, how will you protect them from the barbarians in time?


[cultural expansion]It's simplied because the AI makes decisions for you. Though there's an option to buy tiles manually, it's not very likely that you will afford to use that option a lot, at least not in the beginning of the game.
Simplified? It used to be so trivial that anyone knew when and how much the borders would pop. Now the majority of players will see exactly one new tile, while only the advanced players could predict several tiles in advance, and change the city's focus (while, at the same time, locking the tiles worked by citizens) in order to change the direction of automatic expansion. Dumbed down?
Also, you claim that the option to buy is so expensive that you can never exercise it? This depends, of course on how much you focus on gold, but it strictly gives the player more control, and adds more complexity. And if you find but four city states first, you'll have enough money to buy your first tile. Would you? Or would you rather spend the gold on something else?


The question is, what should you build instead? You have a limited amount of units and you will need less workers. So basically, your only option will be to construct buildings.
Which buildings? Or should you build buildings at all, which cost money? But fortunately, Civ5 is so dumbed down that even on high levels it doesn't matter which buildings to build since you'll win even with an inferior strategy, right? Good luck in your first deity game, and don't say you haven't been warned.
 
The Law of Fan Reaction to Sequels:
" All sequels will generate discussions on whether or not the product is dumbed down "

The Law of Forum Opinion Prediction:
" If the subject is in any way pessimistic about the outcome of the game, they will declare it is dumbed down. If the subject is in any way optimistic about the outcome of the game, they will declare that it is not dumbed down "

What do these two laws tell us? That for all the talk of "dumbing down" there is simply no objective standard for saying so... especially prior to release.

These laws tell us that their maker is stupid. :cool:
 
The Law of Fan Reaction to Sequels:
" All sequels will generate discussions on whether or not the product is dumbed down "

Yeah. I don't know how far back you can read the history in these forums, but I seem to remember this accusation being thrown around (here and other places) at least since the pre-release hubbub for CivIII.

Every Civ for the last ten years was going to ruin the franchise, it seems.
 
In almost all civ games, building a building is always a net benefit. The reason you don't build every building in every city is because you could be building units or more useful buildings.
 
In almost all civ games, building a building is always a net benefit. The reason you don't build every building in every city is because you could be building units or more useful buildings.
Depends. Buildings turn shields (and, in Civ5, gpt) into some bonus. If the bonus is more valuable than the investment, then there's a net benefit. But otherwise I agree with you. I'm just surprised that somehow, Bad Brett seems to think that this doesn't apply to Civ5 anymore.
 
It looks as if they've made it more accessible, but that's not the same as saying it's been dumbed down.

I think combat has gone the complete opposite direction to being dumbed down. In Civ IV there really wasn't that much skill in the combat itself. Building the army and getting into a position to invade was what took consideration, but once you got that far you just ploughed in there and waged your stack against theirs. Frankly, I'm completely bored of that.
 
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