Is Civ4 powerful enough for colonialism?

[Arkaeyn]

I've been reading up on my colonial history and considering making a mod on The Scramble for Africa. However, Civ4 seems to still have most of the problems of the previous games in at least one area, and that is in complete control of cities and their borders. It's a little better in that you have to control the cities for a while before you can really use them, but still, the murky history of colonialism does not lend itself to the game easily.

So I was wondering, since I really haven't started playing with the nuts and bolts of the modding engines (and I'm not a programmer), is it feasible to create a different system of control for cities?

Here's my idea: instead of cities only being completely captured militarily or swapped diplomatically (which the AI doesn't seem to like, ever) why not offer a staggered system of varying control, with three stages, perhaps after researching Imperialism -

Sphere of Influence - historically, the colonial Powers would sign treaties with the rulers of the land establishing them as part of the dominion. They would trade guns and luxuries in exchange for control over diplomacy and the chance to raise their flag. I'm not sure how this would work in-game, perhaps giving the power control over what the city builds and not allowing the minor power to declare war.

Mandate - the Powers eventually stopped relying on "indirect empire" and took a "forward policy" of controlling its possessions more directly. In-game, this might mean the Power becomes responsible militarily for the city. This usually happened when the Power was forced to send in troops, either in case of a revolt by the natives, or threats from other Powers. This could occur either diplomatically or militarily.

Annexation - This one's easy, the Power takes full control of the city, keeping its culture intact. This can occur militarily or diplomatically, but ONLY if the Mandate has already been established. Otherwise it's simply a conquest.

Thoughts from the modding experts?

 

[Optimizer]

We could try to simulate this problem by requiring certain very expensive buildings in a city before it becomes useful.

For instance, the cost of modern military units (Rifleman, Artillery etc) could be raised severely. Barracks and Factories would increase the production rate by something like 400% each.

 

[Lares]

Another idea: If you don't mind losing religion as a game concept, you could change this to a colonial influence system. Just change the icons of the world religions to colonial flags of the major colonial powers. Create a unit unique to each of those nations, which is able to spread influence to colonial cities. I haven't done any in deep modding, but it should be possible to do some events, which transform a city with a colonial influence into a city of the influencing nation. Possibly under certain conditions like being influenced for a certain period of time, no other colonial nations influence or the presence of military units. Just my two cent ...

 

[Arkaeyn]

I like the religion idea - there seemed to be only one instance where the religion of the European nation made a difference in the Scramble, when the French Catholic converts fought the English Protestant converts in Buganda. I'm not sure that it would be perfect, but if its effects were made even stronger and it could only be arrived at through diplomacy, that might do the trick.

Alternately, I too thought of special border-changing units. Each European Civ could have a Famous Explorer unit which had the abilities to make deals with the natives, and buy their land. (Belguim could have Stanley, France de Brazza, etc). They could pay to flip borders, like in Colonization, and that could simulate the Spheres of influence. For a lot more, they could pay to flip just the city, as a Mandate. Would be less fun, but probably easier to do.

 

[Lares]

I'm really interested in the history of colonialism and I like the way you try to recreate the different types of colonial activities into the civ IV game mechanics. Did you ever play the boardgame Pax Britannica?

I think the main problem with the ideas up to now is: What could be between influence and annexation of a colonial city? You're completly right with the description of the mandate as a form of more direct controll of the area. But how could this be translated into game terms?

One way would require a lot of civilizations: Think of every colonial area as being one civilization in civ4 terms. E.g. Kenya is a civ with a number of cities resembling the border of the colony. As a first step a potential colonial nation should establish spheres of influence in every city of the colonial civ with special units. There should be also the possibility to get rid of spheres of influence of other colonial powers. Possibly with some negative effects on the relationship to this power.

If all cities of a potential colony have spheres of influence for a certain period of time an event is triggered, which allows the controlling colonial power to get into an alliance with the colony. This could be the way to do the mandate type of colony. Troops could be send into the colony, perhaps there is also a way to simulate increasing yields from the colony, like forced trade aggreements between the colonial power and the colony. Or, more simply, a kind of tribute of the colonial civ to its controller. Or a mix of both.

After another period of time the controlling civ is able to annex the colonial civ. There could be requirements like a number of units placed inside the colonial civs borders or something like that. If annexed, all cities of the colonial civ will flip to the colonial power. The colonial civ is out of the game. The colonial cities should possibly get some kind of building which characterizes their colonial nature, so that some kinds of buildings may be build only in colonial cities, others can only be build in cities in the colonial civ home country. Perhaps this building causes some unrest in the population to simulate rebellions against the colonial power.

This system has the advantage, that colonialism is not bound to founding cities somewhere or conquering preplaced ones. Instead of this colonies are areas with several cities like it was the case in real history. One could even manage to give the colonial powers certain advantages in aquiring certain colonies: For example, the Kenya civ could have a good relation to the British civ at the start of the game. With the consequence of a higher chance of an open border aggreement, so placing colonial influences becomes possible.

 

[Ranbir]

What if we brought back colonies from Civ 3.
But give them extra things. Instead of just allowing access to a resource, provide some money too...give it a defense bonus so it's worth defending...

Imagine Africa all littered with colonies on certain resources, and not littered with cities...

Hard for the AI to make it so...maybe increase costs of cities even more?

 

[Arkaeyn]

I think we're on the same page, Lares. I never played Pax Britannica, was never a big boardgamer. Do you have any books which are your favorites on the subject? I enjoyed The Scramble for Africa, as well as King Leopold's Ghost. I also really liked and am about to reread A Peace to End All Peace. Also a fan of China, the best book relating to colonialism on that I've read is probably The Sextants of Beijing.

I think we're onto something, I'm beginning to think it's possible to do a Scramble mod, though how to do the Mandates is a little fuzzy.

How would one win a Scramble mod? I haven't played with the mapmaker in Civ4, but it seems that the objective points are out of the game, which would be one way to do it (put one at Fashoda, the diamond mines in Zimbabwe, etc). Maybe an economic victory - first player to make 5000 gold would work.

I've also been thinking that it would be interesting and historically accurate to have the European Powers unable to declare war on one another. They'd have to do everything by proxy.


Ranbir, that's an interesting idea too, but I think it would be difficult to make a whole game based on colonialism with the colonies. One of the big problems I had with Civ3 as a game and as a simulation of history was the way it assumed that nobody owned the land. If I start making a Scramble mod, most of Africa would be owned with various civs. As an anti-colonialist myself, I'd like to make at least some of them playable - go Ethiopia.

 

[Leonel]

I notice that colonies seem to be completely seperate from their home nations borders. The oceans seperated Europe from her colonies. So perhaps unified national territory not in contact with national territory with the nations capital has this colony status and perhaps recieves a higher chance of secession the higher the population the territory has. So if it's a city, like Hong Kong, it has a reduced chance of secession and becoming a new Civilization. If it's a country like Algeria or the United States with something like more than 2 utilitarian resources within its borders then an increased chance of seccession.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Secession would be AWESOME. One of my biggest gripes with Civ has always been its lack of new civilizations appearing (except with the civil wars in Civ2)

I really like that idea for a general mod. It wouldn't work to well with what I'm specifically interested in right now (the Scramble) but it would make, say, Terra maps much more fun. It's probably doable, too

 

[Lares]

@Arkaeyn: Well, up to now I only read history books in German about this subject, but I'm really interested in the history of colonialism. I just borrowed the Scramble for Africa book in our university library. I mentioned Pax Britannica because it uses exactly those different types of colony status as major game mechanics. This could be interesting for a colonialism mod: There can be rival influences of several colonial powers in colonial areas, but once a protectorate or a formal colony is established, the other influences are removed, but the tension towards those powers rises.

Another nice (computer) game on this subject is Paradox "Victoria - Empire under the Sun". Though it seems not to be very popular. It involves a concept of colonial war, which means that colonial powers can declare war on each other in the colonies, while staying at peace in continental Europe. This could be useful in a colonial mod, too.

I really would like to see some kind of colonial mod for civ4. Do you plan to do one? I could assist you in some parts, but I haven't done any modding in civ4, just some in civ3 and especially civ2. I especially like map making. Are you familiar with the whole xml- and python stuff? I think it would be good, if someone experienced with this would be in a possible team.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Sadly, I think we're both in the same boat. I did some maps for Civ3, and some modding, but I'm pretty well lost getting too deep into Civ4. I'd love to work on a Scramble for Africa mod, and then maybe a China mod, but I'm not going to start a project until I get my better video card working, which may be a few days or weeks.

I hope you enjoy The Scramble for Africa, it's a good read. A bit Eurocentric, but not distressingly so until the conclusion, which feels tacked on. "Airplanes good!"

 

[Ranbir]

Ok, depending on 4's moddability.

couldn't we mod to have a second type of 'city' able to be built from settlers. We can call these colonies. These colonies can't have cultural expansion, but we can make them all colonial in other ways...

So then you 'could' have certain civs with only these types of cities. So they can be considered colonial powers.

 

[Depx]

You can actually 'disable' culture fairly easily. If you edit all the Traits to -1000 for the 3rd commerce modifer, noone will ever gain culture no matter what buildings they have. Has to be more than -100 because of buildings with +100 and +50 will counteract it.

I did forget one thing, that is great artists would still be able to increase the culture

 

[Arkaeyn]

It's not that I want culture not to exist, it's that I want to give the Europeans a way to bust through the borders of African countries without declaring war. Historically, a European expedition or two - with maybe 5 whites - would go on journeys through Africa signing treaties with the local chiefs and kings. They didn't have the power to conquer and hold these lands, but when they returned to Europe with the treaties in hand, the maps were drawn up showing the treaties as under European control or influence. The other countries didn't mess with that (until late in the Scramble when the French got uppity).

 

[Ranbir]

Well, then have colonolial cities with like, 0 border range. Although the european civ controls that said colony, it merely represents they have a control over that certain colony.

 

[Lares]

I don't think the problem are the cultural borders of the colonial cities. One could simulate such expeditions simply by open border treaties. Or by making the expedition unit so powerful, that they can at least pass enemy territory, while not being able to conquer the cities.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I don't think the problem are the cultural borders of the colonial cities. One could simulate such expeditions simply by open border treaties. Or by making the expedition unit so powerful, that they can at least pass enemy territory, while not being able to conquer the cities.

I was actually thinking of making the explorer unit basically a Machine Gun, to give it significant power, and because the Maxim gun was well-used by explorer/colonialists like Stanley and Lugard. The same gun, in that case, actually.