[R&F] Is England the worst Naval Civ?

[acluewithout]

Actually, yea I guess you could see it like that. But Spain still needs to put more work into it and there's always the chance of failure in which case England will still do better than Spain.

And even when they do found a religion, I'd argue there's still obstacles that make Spain no better off. They're dependent on having an opposing religion to fight against. Even if your neighbor has an opposing religion, if they're lazy at spreading it, it has no effect because there's no majority. It's also inherently anti-synergstic with a religious victory since you want to found a religion and not convert people.

Until Spain can actually move to take advantage of it by spreading their religion, England's free units and cheaper harbors (also means faster admirals too) still will mean early Religion England > early Religion Spain...

True, but when the alternative is warriors, it doesn't seem as bad and will actually help you get iron possibly by conquest.

I mean conquistadors are good, but it's just one era and not that early either. Beating England in one era, doesn't mean much.

Good points.

I agree Spain’s religious bonus do breakdown a little if their opponents don’t have an opposing religion. I don’t see an issue with their abilities not being geared to winning a Religious Victory. To my mind, they’re meant to use Religion to aid conquest. I think a bigger rub is being so geared to mid game conquest means everyone will hate you. Maybe that’s why they get science from their UI - to help them go to space.

That said, I guess Spain could always win a Religious victory by capturing cities to convert them to its Religion, and then hand them back to their original owners later...?

On English Iron-less Swordsmen, in fairness they can of course heal through promotions and pillaging, so it’s not as stark as I made out. And you can always make your first target a city with Iron (as you suggest). Personally, I’ve rarely found Emgland’s free units for settling game changing (although agree it’s sometimes helpful), whereas free units on conquest is very powerful. As they England are currently, I honestly think the only good things going for them are a cheap Harbour, a good mid game unit if you have the gold to buy a couple, and a building which makes the end game of a culture victory administratively easier (because theming is automatic).

Overall, I think Spain maybe just need a tweak here or there, or Religion needs a tweak to make it more useful if you don’t found a Religion (eg maybe Spain’s combat bonuses should work against Civs with different religion or no religion, and maybe just adopting someone else’s Relgion as your majority Religion should be easier or more valuable; and maybe let Great Prophets be recruited all game so Holy Sites feel more valuable). Whereas, I think England are actually deeply flawed now, particularly as a Naval Civ that just ain’t good at any Navy stuff.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think in the end it comes down to the continents mechanic just not working as well as it should on paper and loyalty has pretty much rendered it a gimmick.

Honestly, just give back their trade route lol

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I think in the end it comes down to the continents mechanic just not working as well as it should on paper and loyalty has pretty much rendered it a gimmick.

Honestly, just give back their trade route lol

If continents better followed true geographical barriers, rather than being mostly lines in the sand, the variance around whether you start in the middle or edge of a continent would be reduced. That would likely improve the game play interest associated with all of the continent-based abilities, as civs would cluster on individual continents, with more of an effort required to cross into a new one.

 

[KayAU]

England was really strong before the change to trade routes, now I would agree that they are among the weaker naval/coastal civs. The strongest are probably either Indonesia or the Dutch. Norway can be situationally good, but certainly not among the strongest. I might still rate it above England at this point, due to its bonuses kicking in so early. Spain is probably worse, though, even though they have their strengths.

Let's try to look at what might be important for naval civs systematically:

Production for coastal cities

• England: Cheaper harbors mean you can get shipyards somewhat earlier, but this is not a strong boost, and it doesn't take effect before the Renaissance Era. Additional +2 production for RNDs with Shipyards built on foreign continents.
• Norway: Production bonus for melee ships throughout all eras, Stave Church building available in the Classical Era. Production bonus for melee ships exploitable through chopping overflow.
• Indonesia: Amazing Kampung improvement available in Classical Era. Minor adjacency bonus from coastal or lake tiles.
• Spain: Marginally useful production/food bonus for internal trade routes between continents.
• Netherlands: Good Polder improvement available in Medieval Era, great Industrial Zone adjacency bonus from rivers.
• Japan: Better district adjacency bonuses, which benefit Industrial Zones and Shipyards. Slightly more production from factories later on.

Food and housing for coastal cities

• England: Cheaper Harbors, which again means cheaper Lighthouses.
• Norway: No special benefits.
• Indonesia: Kampungs provide a great amount of food and housing.
• Spain: Extremely slight advantage from food bonus for those intercontinental, internal trade routes.
• Netherlands: Polder provides food and housing.
• Japan: No special benefits.

Getting a navy

• England: Cheaper Harbors means more Great Admiral points, which can occasionally help you get naval units, upgrade them, or turn them into fleets and armadas.
• Norway: Direct production bonus for Melee ships, pretty good.
• Indonesia: Purchases naval units with faith, free faith from coastal city centers, also pretty good.
• Spain: No special benefits.
• Netherlands: No special benefits.
• Japan: No special benefits.

Naval combat

• England: Sea Dog unique Privateer replacement. This is a pretty underwhelming unique unit, in my opinion. +1 movement from ships built at Royal Navy Dockyard is marginally useful, but since the boost goes away when upgrading, and older naval units built before the Harbor never get it at all, its usefulness is limited.
• Norway: Pretty good Longship unique unit, which is strong in the early game. Naval melee units can heal in neutral territory, and can also pillage coastal farms to heal. Early ability to occupy ocean tiles provide tactical advantage.
• Indonesia: The Jong is a very good unique Frigate replacement.
• Spain: Very early access to Fleets and Armadas, both in the Renaissance Era, as opposed to Fleets in the Industrial, and Armadas in the Modern Era. This is potentially very strong.
• Netherlands: De Zeven Provinciën, a very good unique Frigate replacement which specializes in assaulting cities.
• Japan: +5 combat strength in shallow waters, which is pretty good.

Other strengths

• England: Free melee units on foreign continents, which seems pretty strong. Strong mid/late-game unique Melee unit. Each Archeological Museum basically counts as two.
• Norway: Early exploration. Coastal pillaging which also lets you pop goodie huts. Good synergy between abilities and research path (getting the appropriate Eurekas for playing your strengths). Decent unique melee unit which hits hard and is good at pillaging.
• Indonesia: Adjacency bonuses from water tiles benefit Industrial Zones, Entertainment Complexes, Holy Sites, Theatre Squares and Campuses.
• Spain: Strong gold bonus for international, intercontinental trade routes. Good unique unit, useful for religion-assisted conquest. Pretty good unique tile improvement to synergize with this. Loyalty bonuses to help hold on to conquered cities on other continents.
• Netherlands: The Netherlands' adjacency bonuses from rivers are very, very strong whether on the coast or inland. Culture and loyalty from internal trade routes is okay. Culture bomb from Harbor is not very useful, but it doesn't hurt either.
• Japan: Very well rounded and flexible civ with plenty of non-coastal specific advantages. Strong adjacency bonuses, district production bonuses, good unique building, decent unique unit.

 

[acluewithout]

• England: Cheaper harbors mean you can get shipyards somewhat earlier, but this is not a strong boost, and it doesn't take effect before the Renaissance Era....

• England: ...+1 movement from ships built at Royal Navy Dockyard is nice to get your fleet to where it needs to be.

I’d diasagree with these a little. First, England’s Shipyards can be a bit stronger than other Civs because their +2 Gold for being on a foreign continent counts as adjacency, so turns into +2 hammers when you build the Shipyard. The +2 Gold also potentially synergises with the Colonial Policy Cards. The Double Harbour Adjacency Cards is also strong because it doubles the Harbours Gold and Shipyards production giving you +4/+4 for foreign continents.

Second, the +1 movement is a bust. You’ll often build some early Navy without a Harbour, so those units never get the boost. And even units built in your RND lose the boost if you upgrade them (just like you lose boosts from Natural Wonders like Alpine training).

Third, the extra Great Admiral point from Harbours is quite valuable. GAs get you more movement, and have some good retirement bonuses. Not as good as Great Merchants, but still handy.

(You can ignore the loyalty boost from Harbours. It’s useless. I’d rather Spain or Netherlands loyalty bonuses. Maybe if RND just got loyalty equal to Gold Adjacency or Half Adjacency it’d be more interesting, particularly if you could use double adjacency cards to boost both gold and loyalty).

As I said, as a Naval Civ, I think England really just get a half price Harbour. It isn’t that much better than a normal Harbour except for the Great Admiral except situationally - compare Germany’s Hansa for example. Honestly, Japan is better - they get three half price districts, and their Harbours will on average have better adjacencies anyway.

 

[KayAU]

Ah, I forgot about the +2 gold/production. I was trying to cover a lot of ground with that post, and didn't have time to review it properly. It's also a fair point about the early navy not benefitting from the extra movement. I was not aware that the boost would be lost if you upgraded your units later, that makes it a lot worse.

I will edit my post to make it more accurate.

 

[acluewithout]

No worries. Pretty sure most of my Civ of the Weeks Summaries are wildly inaccurate, so I’m certainly not criticising!

I do like the game does actually have quite a few good naval Civs now and colonial Civs. Leaving aside how bad England are, the other Civs on the list are quite cool (albeit Spain still feels a bit NQR).

 

[Tech Osen]

I think a bigger rub is being so geared to mid game conquest means everyone will hate you.

This always kindda bugs me and feels too unrealistic. Even your closest ally will start to hate you for conquering cities on the other side of the map. Maybe the amount of warmonger points an AI collects against you should diminish the further away the battle is taking place. Or a reverse Big Stick Policy (Roosevelt agenda) where AI's care less about wars that are not on any continent they have a city on. But that bring us back to the content border issue.

 

[liv]

England: Free melee units on foreign continents, which seems pretty strong

I played England a while back and if I remember correctly this ability was really ridiculous. You have to actually build the city that you want to have the harbour in to get a unit. If you build a harbour in a city you capture you get no free unit. Realistically how many coastal cities will you be able to build on a foreign continent. I think I had one in that game.

 

[Victoria]

The thread is really bad anyway because

Zulu's get free fleets and armadas and earlier
Amanitore gets half priced ranged ships
Catherine gets +5 combat strength for ships
Chandra gets +2 naval movement and +5 strength for a bit
Cyrus gets +2 naval movement for a bit
Genghis gets good naval combat bonus
Lautro gets good golden age naval combat bonus
Monty gets good naval combat bonus

Basically many land based bonuses bleed to naval due to lazy development which weakens naval strength making me ask... just what is a Naval civ?
Spain is crap too sure but at least they have not continually been reduced from mid tier to bottom with a final resounding huzzah that they fixed the nerf with a useless addition.
stupid game.
@acluewithout ... why do you say OZ is a naval civ?...because of CH?....

 

[acluewithout]

@Victoria I didn’t realise Amanitore gets a bonus for ranged ships. That’s both really interesting... and really depressing. And she gets a bonus for building Harbours. Good grief.

I’d thought bonuses bleeding over to Naval or Religious units was a feature not a bug. I don’t generally mind it, because it lets you take some Civs in really different directions (religious victory Monty anyone?). But now you’ve spelled it out, I can see it’s actually unbalanced in a few areas. Amanitore building Naval Ranged faster is a slap in the face to Harold; Shaka getting Naval Corps and Armies is a poke in the eye for Spain. Maybe this bleeding was intentional - but then that just means FXS didn’t properly consider balance.

Australia: I mixed Naval Civ with Coastal Civ a little - they’re not the same thing, but are related. Australia is a strong Coastal Civ because of their coastal housing bonus, Commercial Hubs on coasts (which indirectly makes their Harbours better), and production bonus (which works for Naval Units along with everyone else). Their Digger is also quite good for capturing Coastal cities on other continents.

I’m not that strict on my definition of Naval Civ, and don’t have a good definition of a Naval Civ anyway. I think it’s a bit more than just strong Naval bonuses - to me, if you’re incentivised to be on the coast, and or build Harbours, and or (maybe) settle (or conquer) (coastal) cities on foreign continents, or get bonuses for those things, you’re probably a Naval Civ because you’ll want to build Navies and Harbours. Also helps if you have a bit of a Nautical Theme, although singing Popeye the Sailor-man is not required.

I think most Civs that are good on the coast or with Harbours usually get a unique sea unit. Australia is a big exception, but I’d still maybe call them Naval. Is Brazil or Germany a Naval Civ? Well, I put them in my original list, and they get a Unique Naval unit, and Brazil’s unit is particularly good, and Brazil also does well with Great Admirals, but maybe they’re not really Naval Civs because there’s nothing else particular Coastal or Harboury about those Civs. Really, I’m happy with whatever definition creates the most interesting discussion.

...although, given my wobbly definition, now I’m not so sure about Nubia. Maybe they are a Naval Civ!?! ...

Anyway. Whatever is the definition of a Naval Civ, England is bottom of the barrel. Not very good at any of it, not really all that good at anything else (except maybe Archeological Museums), and not particularly fun to play anyway. The only serious question is “are they worse than Spain”.

Here’s hoping for some pleasant surprises in the next patch and or expansion.

 

[KayAU]

Just a correction: Amanitore doesn't get half-price ranged ships, a +50% bonus means she gets them for 67% of the cost. Which is still pretty great. To get them at half price, you would need a +100% bonus.

I don't mind so much that some land based/general abilities apply to naval civs, as long as it is by design. I don't have a strict definition of what a naval civ is, although I would loosely base the classification around "civs which have a theme and/or abilities which mainly lend themselves to a naval/maritime focus". For some civs, it is very obvious that most of their abilities are water related, for others, it is a little bit mixed.

In my opinion...
Definitely naval

• Indonesia - Unique ship, bonus to coastal cities, unique sea tile improvement, water adjacency bonus to districts, navy purchasing ability
• Norway - Bonus to building ships, unique ship, three other special abilities related to the sea, sea resource boosting unique building
• England - Unique harbor district, unique ship

Mostly naval

• Netherlands - Unique ship, unique Harbor related ability, unique coastal tile improvement

A bit naval

• Spain - Naval special ability
• Japan - Coastal combat bonus
• Australia - Bonus to coastal cities

Very slightly naval

• Brazil - Unique late game ship
• Germany - Unique late game ship

I have listed these in the order of how naval I feel they are.

 

[kryat]

I don't have a strict definition of what a naval civ is, although I would loosely base the classification around "civs which have a theme and/or abilities which mainly lend themselves to a naval/maritime focus".

I thought about replying to this thread earlier, but I found myself trying to better define “naval civ”. I completely agree with this scale. It felt very wrong to call Germany or Brazil “naval”, and mostly wrong to apply that label to Japan or even Spain! This leads to the interesting conclusion that Spain is only slightly above average at navies because very little calls it out to sea.

With the new scale, the question should now be further refined. Are we trying to determine, of the naval-oriented civs, who does navies worst or which is worst in summation? My experience is that of the top 3 on the scale, England and Norway are pretty evenly matched at sea for second place. On the one hand, Norway gets cheaper boats and some interesting reading mechanics, but England gets more GA points (if you build lots of cheap harbors) and faster boats. The RND is also easier and faster to implement than the Stave Church.

As England, a fun tactic is to push for the Lighthouse of Alexandria and beeline mathematics. With early great admirals, your galleys can go 7 movement by mid classical era. Harold might reach deep water first, but England can explore coast tiles at a speed no one should have right to in the early game.

Granted, Chandragupta and Persia can also get very fast boats for a little while with this same tactic, but it only lasts 10 turns, and you’re unlikely to to have built as many harbors as them compared to England for the GA points (especially in the early game)

However, if I was to give England a bit of a buff I’d say give them something like Indonesia, where they could transfer movement points at sea to escorted land units during golden ages.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Just a correction: Amanitore doesn't get half-price ranged ships, a +50% bonus means she gets them for 67% of the cost. Which is still pretty great. To get them at half price, you would need a +100% bonus.

I don't mind so much that some land based/general abilities apply to naval civs, as long as it is by design. I don't have a strict definition of what a naval civ is, although I would loosely base the classification around "civs which have a theme and/or abilities which mainly lend themselves to a naval/maritime focus". For some civs, it is very obvious that most of their abilities are water related, for others, it is a little bit mixed.

In my opinion...
Definitely naval

• Indonesia - Unique ship, bonus to coastal cities, unique sea tile improvement, water adjacency bonus to districts, navy purchasing ability
• Norway - Bonus to building ships, unique ship, three other special abilities related to the sea, sea resource boosting unique building
• England - Unique harbor district, unique ship

Mostly naval

• Netherlands - Unique ship, unique Harbor related ability, unique coastal tile improvement

A bit naval

• Spain - Naval special ability
• Japan - Coastal combat bonus
• Australia - Bonus to coastal cities

Very slightly naval

• Brazil - Unique late game ship
• Germany - Unique late game ship

I have listed these in the order of how naval I feel they are.

The other thing that makes England and Spain a little more naval IMO is that they both get bonuses for expanding to other continents. In Civ 6 that doesn't always mean other landmasses but it often will. Still that wouldn't make me disagree with your ratings above except I'd move England down to mostly naval since one of their major bonuses, British Museum, is nothing to do with a naval focus.

 

[KayAU]

@AmazonQueen
That is true, and I actually debated with myself about whether to include the consideration of continent related effects in my list. I decided to not include it because it is a bit secondary, and as you point out, continents don't always correspond to separate landmasses. Spain and England would probably get the greatest benefit from their continent-related abilities from starting near the border on a multi-continent landmass. Still, you are right that it is a factor which will encourage them to cross the seas in many cases.

We seem to think similarly, because I also debated moving England down to "mostly naval", as British Museum is a pretty significant non-naval ability. In the end, the reason I choose to keep them in the "definitely naval" category is that a unique district is such a major part of a civilization's abilites and character.

 

[KayAU]

@kryat
I find the question of who does navies best to be quite interesting. I would agree that Indonesia takes the top spot, due to their ship purchasing ability and good unique ship. I would put Norway somewhat above England, though. They have the ship production bonus, a good early game unique ship melee ships, melee ship ability to pillage coast, tactical advantage in early access to ocean tiles, and free embarkation/disembarkation of land units accompanying your fleet. For England, I feel their unique ship is a bit underwhelming, and the most significant advantage is their ability to get lots of Harbors quickly for more Great Admirals. They also have that extra movement point, but it is a temporary buff.

I like the idea of giving England a buff related to movement. Fast transportation of embarked units during Golden Ages sounds pretty good. I might also consider a fix to the additional movement point so it doesn't go away so quickly. Either make it a permanent buff, or make it so that all ships built or upgraded in a city with a RND get it.

EDIT: Alternatively, just bestow the extra movement point to units when they touch the RND.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I don't mind so much that some land based/general abilities apply to naval civs, as long as it is by design.

Abilities like Amanitore's and Genghis' make them general purpose war machines, adept on land and on the sea. Like you, I don't mind that if it's a conscious design decision. I think it's one that should be used, sparingly, however, as the game is typically more interesting when civs have strengths in particular areas, rather than being jack-of-all-trades.

It's when those military abilities get applied equally to religious combat that I really question the care with which the game is being coded and/or the care with which civ bonuses are structured and/or the whole design decision to make the religion game combat by different units.

 

[acluewithout]

Another way if thinking about things is not "who is a naval civ?" but "who does naval well?"

Germany is very fun for naval stuff. The extra military card slot and space for an extra district is neat for naval games. That you also get a unique naval unit is a huge bonus.

I'm a bit suspicious of the idea England can spam Harbours. Sure, they're half price, but you'll still be building quite a few with low production and low housing, and they inherently have restrictive placement requirements. England's extra trade route used to really help with this, because you could grab some extra science, culture, gold, production etc. But sadly, no more.

@KayAU I'm shocked you'd say Spain are only a "bit" Naval. I mean, I think I get your logic, but please no!

 

[liv]

England is still the worst

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Another way if thinking about things is not "who is a naval civ?" but "who does naval well?"

Or even more narrowly, who's best suited to "rule the waves", i.e. who has the best advantages in naval combat.