Is Enraged supposed to be so powerful?

[WarKirby]

I'm presently fighting for my life against the Balseraphs, in two seperate games. Despite having a significant tech, economy, and army size advantage.

The reason? Enraged freaks.
Crazed/Enraged is one of the most common mutations, and it's usually a bad thing, as it makes you lose control of units. but does this have any effect on the AI at all? Since their units are obviously already under AI control, it seems like they're getting an easy cheat to negate the worst effect, while gaining it's ridiculous benefits.

the Enraged promo gives +1 movement, and +60% strength.
Perpentach is churning out units, straight out of the gate, that I can barely match up to with my most highly promoted swordsmen.

Is enraged really supposed to have that much strength bonus? It's like a free combat III. And he already HAS combat III, too. And usually Heroic Strength/Defence and sometimes Stoneskin. Freaks can be extremely powerful, but the enraged promo specifically is putting them way over the top.

An extra 60% strength on almost any single promotion seems a bit much, and I wouldn't say not having control of the unit is really enough of a downside to compensate that much power, even for a human player. For the AI, who don't even get that downside, it's just silly. Even that 5% chance of turning barbarian isn't helping any, because even after they turn barbarian, I still have a superpowered barbarian enraged freak running around.

 

[Sephi]

Enraged is like stoneskin. Powerful, but lasts only one battle.

 

[xienwolf]

Same effect on the AI as it has on a human. Enraged units can do nothing but fight, they aren't even allowed to sit still, they'll always wander to look for any combat they can find, and unless an easy target is sitting right next to them, they will happily attack at pretty bad odds, risking near certain death. The Enraged unit ignores all normal instructions that an AI would want to give it, including promoting, upgrading, defending a city/settler, using ships to transport to a battlefront, casting spells.... Anything but fighting, or running full speed toward a fight.

If you happen to be at war, and the nearest enemies happen to be your opponent, it works out not to be so horrible. But if you are hurting for cash and need to keep troops in your borders to avoid supply costs... too bad.


Oh, and Enraged also grants the same effects as March, so it's even stronger than you make it out to be (Of course, since lost after combat, few units are ever hurt while enraged, unless they were crazed). But the counter to that is that the unit isn't ever allowed to sit still and try to heal, so if damaged by a spell to a significant degree, or already damaged before they go enraged, they'll still attempt to attack anything and everything around them.

 

[Iceciro]

You're lucky Perpentach doesn't understand Law I. I've grown rather fond of using piles and piles of OO Lunatics walking with adepts renamed "Psych Wardens". Back off the Adept during a war once the pile of Lunatics is there, begin laughter as they slowly go enraged, charging enemies with their massive bonus strength and collateral damage.

 

[xienwolf]

Glad to hear that people find Enraged to have a GOOD side to it now. I had played with making it "work" quite a bit while reading through feedback that Kael was getting about the implementation and waiting for 050 to release

 

[cIV_khanh93]

loyalty counters enraged?

 

[Breez]

Loyalty blocks Enraged in FF. You can't have both

 

[cIV_khanh93]

does loyalty dispel enrage? then I understand what iceciro is saying

 

[xienwolf]

It prevents enraged, and suppresses it. Cast loyalty on a unit who is currently enraged and you regain control of him, without enraged active on the unit any longer. But if the Adept leaves his stack before he enters combat (to COMPLETELY cure him of enraged through battle), then he will re-enrage on the next turn.

Cast Loyalty on a Crazed unit and it will not go enraged until the Adept leaves his stack and he looses loyalty. Then he'll return to the normal "I can go crazy any minute!" state.

 

[Iceciro]

Yep. It's exactly how I want lunatics to work in practice. It's like bringing a bunch of frothing, angry, rabies-infected dogs to a warzone on leashes, and then dropping the leashes and walking away

 

[WarKirby]

Same effect on the AI as it has on a human. Enraged units can do nothing but fight, they aren't even allowed to sit still, they'll always wander to look for any combat they can find, and unless an easy target is sitting right next to them, they will happily attack at pretty bad odds, risking near certain death.

I don't think it's working like this, though.
I've seen plenty of enraged freaks breaking off from an invading stack, and just walk past a fortified city. opting to wander aimlessly and attack workers instead.

Regardless though, I still feel that +60% strength is too much, here. That makes a lv1 freak require a lv4 unit to take out.

I think 20-30% would be more reasonable

 

[1234567890]

Anyway, you can control the enraged units. Give them orders before the next turn.

 

[WarKirby]

Anyway, you can control the enraged units. Give them orders before the next turn.

Well, that's neither here nor there. It's pretty illogical to call this anything other than an exploit.

And my issue here is with how powerful it is when the AI use it against me, not so much that it sucks to happen.

 

[xienwolf]

You cannot even SELECT an enraged unit. So good luck trying to give them any orders of any kind (I tend not to allow exploits to live very long)

 

[1234567890]

The enraged promotion is a real handicap. I think 60% strength is fine as the enraged unit always commits suicide against a stack of doom or a well protected city.

 

[WarKirby]

You cannot even SELECT an enraged unit. So good luck trying to give them any orders of any kind (I tend not to allow exploits to live very long)

I think he meant queueing up orders, before they become enraged.

Obviously only useful if you can predict the enragement happening, like if the AC is at 89 and you're about to raze a city.

 

[xienwolf]

That also doesn't work, order queue is cleared and group is left when a unit pops enrage.

 

[Sephi]

Regardless though, I still feel that +60% strength is too much, here. That makes a lv1 freak require a lv4 unit to take out.

If you fortify on a wooded hill, the advantage is yours. Or use a unit with high withdraw like a catapult.

After all, the unit won't have any stack defense. So you should be able to weaken the unit with a ranged attack. Atleast in theory .

 

[Gedwyn]

You're lucky Perpentach doesn't understand Law I. I've grown rather fond of using piles and piles of OO Lunatics walking with adepts renamed "Psych Wardens". Back off the Adept during a war once the pile of Lunatics is there, begin laughter as they slowly go enraged, charging enemies with their massive bonus strength and collateral damage.

Very very very interesting

 

[Iceciro]

It's great because (I'm not sure if the change is carried over to FF) Lunatics don't cost support in FFH. And they're really cheap for the kind of suicide charge damage this attack setup can do. They all do collateral damage on the offense, so it's like stockpiling really really angry fireballs.