Is Germany overpowered?

[mboettcher]

Fraulzar I also liked your post alot. Personally, I don't whip with Germany I tend to try and get out 3-4 cities and chop pyramids and oracle in respective cities and try to take code of laws (and a religion) with my free tech. This way I can get an uber SE economy going early but I most definately see the advantages of your style of play and will try it out in my next game.

I think we do agree on one thing though. Using the traits of the two leaders to leverage a strong economic start. (which is how most civs should be played I guess, but most people I think fail to find a way to do that with respective civs)

 

[pi-r8]

For those of you who say the game is over by industrial age I say two things RAISE THE DIFFICULTY and STOP PLAYING ON SMALL PANGEA MAPS WITH EARLY UU.

And what difficulty/settings do you usually play on? The problem is that if you're not in a good position by the industrial age, it's extremely hard to come back and win, even with panzers+assembly plants.

 

[Nansen]

My earlier post in a different thread just perfectly illustrates the strengths of the German Civilization in the game as described by the OP. In that game I played last weekend I indeed won my first very strong victory on Noble with Fredrick - I share the view that you are in top shape if you survive the early years:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6423476&postcount=56

 

[Iranon]

It's very possible to have a healthy but small to midsized empire to yourself for a long time though, especially if you'd have to invade another continent to expand.

Getting your industrial base up more quickly than anyone else and having Panzers fight everything on equal or better terms (even their direct counters if you factor in collateral damage) is a fairly decent opportunity for conquest in my opinion.

 

[noto]

Panzers are actually pretty good. What you people are forgetting is that it is difficult to counter tanks with anything but tanks. Think about it. The panzer is similar to the cossack, in that it gets a bonus against its own type, but it is WAY, WAY better. The reason is that cavalry fill a niche role and can be countered by other units, like riflemen. Tanks, on the other hand, dominate the battle field if one gets them at the right time. Infantry cannot stand up to tanks. The reasons is infantry obv die to tanks in the field and can only barely match them when defending a city. Of course we all know that defending a city is not a good strategy either as seige units will rip a city to shreds (and tanks can cause collateral too). Yes, there is the anti-tank infantry...but if the enemy only builds a handful of them they won't help much. If the enemy spams anti-tank, all you have to do is escort your tanks with cavalry or even infantry (yes that will slow them down) but anti tanks won't be able to hit your tank stacks then. When it comes right down to it, the only real counters to tanks are other tanks and an air force. Other tanks are more realistic. Panzers solve that. Basically, if you beeline to get panzers and you get them around the same time or just before your opponents get flight, you will reign supreme on the battlefield.

 

[sydhe]

Since Frederick is one of the civilizations I like to select as an opponent since he's so easy to beat, I would say no.

 

[mboettcher]

pi-r8 I play on immortal usually and almost always on huge maps (since I think short whimpy games are boring).

I don't have my game ready for deity yet but getting there. Problem for me is I like to build pyramids and usually oracle too (if marble or stone is available) and on deity with so many opponents its hard to build any wonders and you can't count on your neighbor building it because its a huge map. I'm working on it though. Fraulzar had some nice tips I might like to try out.

 

[mboettcher]

I don't know if anyone read the op but I outlined the numbers of the panzer vs its contemporary opponents and I think it demonstrated that the panzer does far better vs all the other units from its age than any other UU. And it does significantly better vs the upgrade from the next age than any other UU.

As NOTO said the only counter to panzers is really air power. I always spam fighters panzers and then some infantry(or marines) and artillary personally. All other units are pointless. I just try to attack their units in wave after wave of fighters to shoot down all their fighters and rack up some high xp ones. This way I can prevent air attacks on my units.

 

[Fraulzar]

I most definately see the advantages of your style of play and will try it out in my next game.

I'm interested to hear how it works out for you.

 

[Molybdeus]

I don't really think that this makes for a distinguishingly black mark against the Germans though.. Early UU's are more often vital to victory, but you can perform most of their early-crippling functions with regular units quite well...

That's not really true. Chariots need to hit really early to be successful, since by the time your opponents have three archers in a city and cultural defenses up you won't be able to break through with six chariots. But Immortals and War Chariots will be able to break through and take the city.

Warrior rushes are a terrible idea on higher levels. Quechua rushes, however, are incredibly effective. Praetorians are so strong they can be difficult to counter with axemen, etc. Most of the unique units are more than just "win-more" units. Their superiority lets you prevail in situations you actually would not with a normal unit.

 

[AfterShafter]

That's not really true. Chariots need to hit really early to be successful, since by the time your opponents have three archers in a city and cultural defenses up you won't be able to break through with six chariots. But Immortals and War Chariots will be able to break through and take the city.

Warrior rushes are a terrible idea on higher levels. Quechua rushes, however, are incredibly effective. Praetorians are so strong they can be difficult to counter with axemen, etc. Most of the unique units are more than just "win-more" units. Their superiority lets you prevail in situations you actually would not with a normal unit.

Whoops, misread.

I'm thinking axemen rush. That's the real knockout early rush. Chariot rush can work too - just bring 3 per enemy unit, and you can effectively pluck several of the enemies cities, if not entirely wipe out the capital.

 

[jeffreyac]

Though, I did learn (to my pain) that axe rushing one of the civs that get bonus promotions to archers (protective, I think?) can be painful.... 8 axemen vs 3 archers, and I didn't notice until I got to the gate that they were CGIII+combatI archers - and, even better, his other city was on a hill...

 

[Gone Dark]

Germany is a competitor for the weakest civ in the game UU and UB wise. . Panzers are useless.

Sort of ironic to read this after visiting the "Clash of War(Peace)mongers on Deity - BTS"-thread in the strategy forum.

 

[AfterShafter]

Though, I did learn (to my pain) that axe rushing one of the civs that get bonus promotions to archers (protective, I think?) can be painful.... 8 axemen vs 3 archers, and I didn't notice until I got to the gate that they were CGIII+combatI archers - and, even better, his other city was on a hill...

The unspoken rule is that protective civs make rushing way, way harder, period. Even with Ramses I often aim for a different strategy in the event of a beside protective civ start.

 

[Wodan]

Am I the only one who purposefully does NOT war early on high level, simply to give myself a more challenging game? Plus, it's fun playing with the modern era. It's different tactics, different style of play. Totally different game than early. If nothing else, it gives variety and more enjoyment out of CIV.

Wodan

 

[AfterShafter]

Am I the only one who purposefully does NOT war early on high level, simply to give myself a more challenging game? Plus, it's fun playing with the modern era. It's different tactics, different style of play. Totally different game than early. If nothing else, it gives variety and more enjoyment out of CIV.

Wodan

Actually, we're largely in the same boat here. 2/3 of the characters I "flip" for are guys I aim for a peaceful game with... Exceptions are Shaka, Napoleon, Brennus, and sometimes Ramses. I tend to agree that winning a game where avoiding war is your goal is much, much harder than pulling the human-brain trump card of rushing. Beating an AI in a tech race without physically beating them into submission when you start losing said tech race is just nasty - have to be very, very careful diplomatically so you don't burn all your bridges behind you and keep your trade options open, as well as maintaining a very solid economy and a military as a deterrent. Not to mention the tough expansion decisions you'll have to make early on, about how to best secure land for the long term without forcefully wresting it away from opponents.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Am I the only one who purposefully does NOT war early on high level, simply to give myself a more challenging game? Plus, it's fun playing with the modern era. It's different tactics, different style of play. Totally different game than early. If nothing else, it gives variety and more enjoyment out of CIV.

Wodan

I agree - you don't need to war early. Unless I'm playing an aggressive leader I don't even want to - thats also the time to setup key wonders or grab the land you want. War can wait until later if its necessary.

I also find myself liking my neighbours sometimes too.

 

[Rvil Plum]

I play emperor / immortal, and don't think the German civ is any special threat, because all civs at that level are a HUGE threat. They all come at you with huge numbers of Tanks, and yes I react when I see panzers, but there isn't a big difference between a stack of 20 ordinarily tanks or a stack of 20 panzers, because if you can deal with one, you can deal with the other.

The largest UU discrepancy in the game are Rome's early Praetorian units, as they will go through your axe/spear units like a knife through butter. You can fight off every other civ's UU if you have to in any era that you have to, but with Rome, you must buy peace, as an early war against them is just to one sided and far to costly.

Different civs do obviously weigh heavier in the player's mind when their UB or UU is active, but they are all fairly balanced. UB's are not game winners in themselves. Yes, they can help an enemy civ field more troops or tech faster, or whatever, but a UB is just "adding additional value". A UU can however win or lose a game all by itself, because they are something genuinely new in the world, and there is a brief window of opportunity when an enemy civ has a military advantage over one or more of its neighbours.

Example: The only thing that is going to stop a stack of enemy Praetorian when they are marching across the map is when they bump into the sea.

Regards - Mr P

 

[pxpdoo]

I will put Gandhi of India (or Boudicia of India, as I'm currently playing) against any German, with any leader. I've had some tough times with these combos, but I've (almost) always won. The Fast Worker is absolutely ridiculous, and the Maus just compounds it. I'm in love lol

 

[AfterShafter]

The largest UU discrepancy in the game are Rome's early Praetorian units, as they will go through your axe/spear units like a knife through butter. You can fight off every other civ's UU if you have to in any era that you have to, but with Rome, you must buy peace, as an early war against them is just to one sided and far to costly.

Actually, I've seen dozens of odds calculations in the forums, and personally experienced the axe VS praet battle before... It's actually quite close, and when you calculate hammers to relative strengths (not an entirely useful calculation, true, but still interesting) the axes are more economical when fighting praets. I believe that aggressive axemen are actually even with praets too. Any which way, Praets do NOT cut through axemen with ease... They just decimate every single other unit before crossbowmen/macemen/defending longbowmen.

Oh, and for the record, I do think that Praets are overpowered.