Is God an Atheist?

[Smidgey]

Before the Christian dismisses atheism as irrational or condemns the atheist as immoral, he should consider the disturbing possibility that the God of Christianity is himself an atheist. And if this is true, it means that the Christian worships, obeys, and had devoted his life to an atheistic being who does not believe in any power superior to himself, never prays, is utterly without faith, and who does not acknowledge any authority, either cognitive or moral, external to himself.

If theism is loosely defined as belief in a higher power, a mysterious being whose essential nature cannot be understood (whether in whole or in part) by the believer, then God is an atheist. He does not believe in a power higher than himself, nor can there be anything that he fails to understand, for nothing can be unknown or unknowable to an omniscient being.

If theism is defined as the belief in a supernatural being, then God is an atheist. His own powers, though supernatural from a human point of view, are comprehensible to himself. Everything is "natural" from God's perspective.

If theism involves a relationship of subordination and dependence between a theist and her object of veneration, the God is an atheist. He is a self-sufficient being who disbelieves in any power greater than himself. He worships nothing, never prays, never seeks forgiveness, and never acknowledges his own errors.

If theism is the belief in a creator, or first cause, who is ultimately responsible for one's own existence, then God is an atheist. He believes himself to have existed eternally -- though, as Kant suggested, even God must occassionally wonder where he came from.

If theism involves the belief in an external moral authority, a being whose moral law is obligatory for his creatures, then God is an atheist. He does not believe in a higher law, nor does he think himself capable of doing wrong. He does not regard himself bound to respect the rights of any other being. God is morally autonomous, a law unto himself.

God therefore is an atheist. Moreover, he is a positive atheist of the most dogmatic variety, for he claims to know with absolute certainty that there exists no being superior to himself. He is never troubled by doubt, never reexamines any of his beliefs, and never feels obliged to justify them.

This raises some further questions: Why, if God is an atheist, should we suppose that he disapproves of atheism among his creatures? Is not a benevolent faither pleased when his children grow up to be like him? And how can the Christian condemn atheism per se without also condemning their atheistic God? Is not the atheist who strives to be like God more admirable than the Christian who merely believes in him?

Is Satan a Christian?

Satan is not an atheist -- that much is clear -- for he believes in the God of Christianity. We thus have the intriguing spectacle of a battle between two titans, with God the atheist on the side of good, and Satan the theist on the side of evil. And if the Bible is to be believed, the atheists will ultimately triumph over the theist.

Is Satan the theist also a Christian? Apparently so, because a Christian is defined in terms of his beliefs, not his actions. Satan clearly believes in the central tenets of Christianity. He believes, for example, that Jesus, the Son of God, was sacrificed to redeem the sins of mankind -- for if Satan does not believe this, why did he tempt Jesus in an effort to sabotage his divine mission? He also believes in the resurrection of Jesus, in the power of God to work miracles, and in the existence of a heaven and a hell, he calls home.

Satan, a major player in many biblical events, does not have the least doubt about the veracity of God's word. Indeed, it is impossible to name one belief of the best Christian that Satan does not share. We may therefore conclude that Satan is a Christian, despite his rebellious spirit and competitive zeal. No one is perfect, after all.

-- George H. Smith (Why Atheism? pp 217-219)

I want to know what other peoples take on this is. Does the argument make logical sense to you?

For me I think he is correct in saying that God is an atheist (this part of the argument is structured well), however I think this is where he should have stopped. To prove that a higher being of any kind is atheistic is perfectly acceptable and the author need not go any further, such as claim the devil to be theistic.

I support his view that it can be used as a premis to attack religion and the practices of religion, but is it really an argument against God? I suppose a religious person could claim that for God to be atheistic is perfectly acceptable. What do you think?

(P.S. just for the books I am an atheist, so maybe I am being a little sympathetic.)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It can't logically be used as an argument against the existance of God. Using human terms to describe God will only go so far. I always considered belief in God, or a lack of belief, to be the fundamental issue, and clearly God would believe in Himself. And Satan can't be considered a Christian - he may acknowledge the existence of Christ, but he doesn't even claim to follow him.

Also, for what it's worth, I think that there are moral laws that are 'outside' or external to God, that He is unable to violate, even.

 

[GenMarshall]

Saying that God is an Atheist is clearly Blasphemy

 

[ybbor]

okay, he lays out a convincing argument, but so what? If I tried hard enough I could prove a tomato was a vegetable, but would it change anything?

 

[Sidhe]

No and I'm agnostic so I'm not biased towards either tennants of religion or atheism.

If you believe that God was there before the universe then there is only him as God, because no other God can exist, he is rightly atheistic because he alone must be the only God, reading things into that is an excercise in futility.

Satan is a believer of course, but he has thrown of the shackles of God's divine will and exists to torment mankind, this is not Christian, in the Bible he taunts and reduces Job to despair for his own petty enjoyment, the fact that God lets it happen is the message of the bible, I know that a truly faithful man will not lack in courage or righteousness I will allow satan to have his way to prove this, it is my example unto man, Job eventually triumphs over evil. This is pretty dubious rhetoric and I find it at odds with what an atheist would really call the tennants of his "faith" if he were a strong atheist.

Even the weak atheist is treading into illogical sophistry. You can't argue against God by acknowledging his existence,and you can't argue against God if you doubt his existence,the whole idea is preposterous. God isn't some omniscient presence you can place arguments on, he is just God, if you accept the beliefs of the faiths of God then there is no reasonable way you can argue against God, nor should you try as an atheist. This is weak conjecture based on if you like weak conjecture about what God is, it should be given no more credence than the devout and unshaken belief that God cannot exist, it is not even logical, it is removed from philosophy and hiding behind trite analogy. IMHO don't waste your time on arguments like this they are but a fools errand. You can't place virtues onto Satan and sins onto god, not in a religous framework.

 

[The Capitalist]

This is a great thread,absurd but really cool.
God,i love being blasphemous.

 

[puglover]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this logic is full of holes. God does not believe in anything more powerful than himself, and is not obliged to worship or pray to anything. But to say he is inconsistent in that he opposes atheism is silly. God doesn't believe in a higher being simply because there IS no higher power than God.

God is not human, and is not required the same behaviors as we are. He is like nothing on earth, and thank God for that.

 

[Smidgey]

Also, for what it's worth, I think that there are moral laws that are 'outside' or external to God, that He is unable to violate, even.

I agree with this. The dialogue of Ethyphro, as far as I'm concerned, proves that God does not give us our morals (or if he does they are arbritary commands). Plato's simplicity in the dialogue is the genius of it:

(1) If divine command theory is true then either (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, or (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.
(2) If (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, then they are morally good independent of God’s will.
(3) It is not the case that morally good acts are morally good independent of God’s will.
Therefore:
(4) It is not the case that (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good.
(5) If (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God, then there is no reason either to care about God’s moral goodness or to worship him.
(6) There are reasons both to care about God’s moral goodness and to worship him.
Therefore:
(7) It is not the case that (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.
Therefore:
(8) Divine command theory is false.

For me this disproves any religious claim to God and morality.

However, I am confused about the devil part of the argument. Is he correct to suggest that someone knowing of God is a Christian, or does a Christian have to act in a certain way too? (someone answer for me please ). Also, this begs another question; if this is the case, and a non-theist acts in a certain way that is morally similar to a theist, does this make him/her have the same status when they are judged (or whatever happens when you die)?

 

[GenMarshall]

If you believe that God was there before the universe then there is only him as God, because no other God can exist, he is rightly atheistic because he alone must be the only God, reading things into that is an excercise in futility.

Erm, no. God is not an atheistic, God (In my case the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) is Monotheistic and he clearly stated to Mosses in the ten commandments "Thou shall have no other gods before me".

Satan is a believer of course, but he has thrown of the shackles of God's divine will and exists to torment mankind, this is not Christian, in the Bible he taunts and reduces Job to despair for his own petty enjoyment, the fact that God lets it happen is the message of the bible, I know that a truly faithful man will not lack in courage or righteousness I will allow satan to have his way to prove this, it is my example unto man, Job eventually triumphs over evil. This is pretty dubious rhetoric and I find it at odds with what an atheist would really call the tennants of his "faith" if he were a strong atheist.

God does not cast people into hell, God does not want anyone to go to Hell. Its people who send themselves to hell by tossing away the love and grace of God. God is a loving person but he also has to be just to. Think if you will if your best friend is a police officer, if you break the law would you expect your friend to turn a blind eye just because he is your friend? No, your friend would have to arrest you because he is just (and also his responsibilities as a police officer)

 

[Smidgey]

okay, he lays out a convincing argument, but so what? If I tried hard enough I could prove a tomato was a vegetable, but would it change anything?

Try it, prove to us that a tomato is a vegetable. I think you will find it to be an impossibility .

 

[Sidhe]

@Civ General: By atheistic I meant he believes in no other god but himself(in this case monotheistic and atheistic are the same thing oddly enough) and of course your other statement is a reinforcement of the message of Job in the bible. We agree quite whole heartedly, we are at odds in no way shape or form. I'm not sure why you quoted me at all. except I sometimes argue on the other side of the fence.

Job railed against God but at the end of the day he realised his railings and questioning of God were a lack of understanding of God, just as justice and righteousness are understanding. We cannot pass our faith by because of the difficulty of morality, we must obey the tennants of our faith or lose that which is faith, as Job came to realise. Of course our way of defining what is God's will ,is somewhat open to corruption ,which is why even god advocates questioning of his will, as in the message of Job to find truth, just as the faithfull should today, without questions, faith stagnates. Job is an extremely clever message to the faithful, oldey but goodey

 

[shortguy]

I suppose he's logically correct with his "God is an Atheist" argument--given a lot of assumptions, though--but I don't think this has any practical importance in the least.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

However, I am confused about the devil part of the argument. Is he correct to suggest that someone knowing of God is a Christian, or does a Christian have to act in a certain way too? (someone answer for me please ). Also, this begs another question; if this is the case, and a non-theist acts in a certain way that is morally similar to a theist, does this make him/her have the same status when they are judged (or whatever happens when you die)?

I would agree that a Christian is defined by belief, not behavior. However, the difference is that a Christian doesn't merely believe that Christ is the redeemer, but voluntarily accepts that this redemption applies to him or her.

As for God and morality: The way I understand it, God could be called a utilitarian, because He seeks the greatest good for the greatest number of people, which is morality. In other words, laws like justice and mercy, because they provide benefits to all, become moral laws, and God cannot change their nature any more that He can make 2+2=5. However, Only God understands all the circumstances well enough to determine what is the greatest good in any situation. Humans, with our limited understanding, cannot. So God gives us general moral laws such as "Thou shalt not kill" - usually this leads to the greatest good. But God knows when there are exceptions, so He can allow someone to die if it is for the greater good. I also believe that God gives specific commands with no obvious moral base - like "don't eat pork" - as a way for believers to seek to do His will above theirs, which is in itself a good.

 

[Silent Spectre]

He is an atheist using that definition, yes. However, the main point of being an atheist is that you don't believe in a God or any sort of spiritual being higher than the average human.

 

[The Capitalist]

I agree with this. The dialogue of Ethyphro, as far as I'm concerned, proves that God does not give us our morals (or if he does they are arbritary commands). Plato's simplicity in the dialogue is the genius of it:

I thought the dialogue was about piety,not the christian concept of God,since christianity wasn't invented yet.

It was a story of Socrates being charge of impiety by three young people which was told in 'Apology',when Socrates was going to be condemn to death.Euthyphro was the character that Socrates argue with before the trial that Socrates thought that Euthyphro could give him esoteric knowledge of the gods.He was clearly dissappointed when Euthyphro could not answer his questions to any satisfaction.

For me this disproves any religious claim to God and morality.

However, I am confused about the devil part of the argument. Is he correct to suggest that someone knowing of God is a Christian, or does a Christian have to act in a certain way too? (someone answer for me please ). Also, this begs another question; if this is the case, and a non-theist acts in a certain way that is morally similar to a theist, does this make him/her have the same status when they are judged (or whatever happens when you die)?

Now this question is definately about piety.

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

this is the stupidest thing ive ever seen!

it says God is an athiest... whatever... by saying God is an athiest it is saying there IS a God. which means that ther is a God and that even though he is athiest, He still exists and must be worshipped.

 

[Smidgey]

I thought the dialogue was about piety,not the christian concept of God,since christianity wasn't invented yet.

It was a story of Socrates being charge of impiety by three young people which was told in 'Apology',when Socrates was going to be condemn to death.Euthyphro was the character that Socrates argue with before the trial that Socrates thought that Euthyphro could give him esoteric knowledge of the gods.He was clearly dissappointed when Euthyphro could not answer his questions to any satisfaction.

Plato (Socrates) asks:

Are God's commandments good because he commands them, or are they commanded by God because they are good.

You are correct, the dialogue is about piety, but this particular section of it concerns morlity and God. It doesnt matter if Christianity didn't exist yet because it concerns "God" in general (this also makes me ask if Christianity did not always exist, then how can it be true? An argument for another time of course ) It was later used as a disproval of the Divine Command Theory (What God commands is good, what he forbids is bad). However, even without the divine command theory it causes a lot of problems for theologians.

 

[Smidgey]

this is the stupidest thing ive ever seen!

it says God is an athiest... whatever... by saying God is an athiest it is saying there IS a God. which means that ther is a God and that even though he is athiest, He still exists and must be worshipped.

Thats not true at all. I can quite easily claim that unicorns have horns. Does this mean unicorns exist?

 

[El_Machinae]

If we can believe that something (we don't understand) created us - why couldn't God?

I've never thought of that.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Erm, no. God is not an atheistic, God (In my case the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) is Monotheistic and he clearly stated to Mosses in the ten commandments "Thou shall have no other gods before me".

Saying you believe god is not an atheist by referencing the bible is not a valid argument, nor does your quote address the actual issues from the OP.

Is there a god higher than god? Your Moses quote doesn't specifically say, it just tells us we have been ordered to have no other gods ahead of him. If there is a god higher than 'god', then many quotes in the bible would be incorrect. If there is not a god higher than god, then god would be both a non-believer in a higher power and certain in his belief that there is no 'superior deity' above him, i.e. the definition of a strong atheist.

As I see it, if an all-knowing all-powerful, omnipotent god exists as the highest possible being, then he must by definition be an atheist.

If god isn't an atheist, then who or what exactly does he believe in and/or worship? Even if you can't give a specific answer would the existence of such a being that god could believe in and/or worship even be possible?


EDIT - edited for clarity.