Is it me, or does Weapon Arsenal for cargo really suck

[Ryika]

You . . . already get an Explorer. Explorers are very strong units by regards of what effects Expeditions can have on the game.

So let's say I give you 10 Euro. If I give you another 10 Euro, are they somehow worth more just because you already have 10 Euro?

It's a military-focused perk. Keep it as something that grants you a military bonus, and balance against it. Heck, make it give you a Soldier and a Ranger. Who knows. Bonus military units are useful.

For WHAT? On low difficulties, okay, sure. On Deity you can't really attack until you get at least affinity 4 or, so what use are those military units? That perk (like probably all "military only"-perks, shares the same problems the Warmonger-Policies have in Civ 5: If they don't help kickstart your empire, then they're very weak.

 

[Gorbles]

You can't equate a multi-faceted unit that has a variety of effects on gameplay to a single cash note. Analogies are bad at the best of times, and that's a terrible one

Military units are useful; they have a use. Sometimes more than one use. They're not always used for attacking AI factions either; Aliens and Stations both require military attention at times. Just because you can't use them to dominate an AI faction doesn't make them useless. Utility isn't a binary rating; there are degrees of usefulness.

I mean, heck, I've made my argument. You're unlikely to agree, so I'm just going to move on after this.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

Add two scouts and it may be worthwhile. Until then the Worker and Free Pioneering are just way stronger, soldiers don't provide anything that you'd need at that moment.

It's like an additional scout though, but I do agree it's way weaker than the other options.

I'd actually say a normal soldier is about as good at defeating aliens as a rover is because it gets the defense bonus from terrain. Just defending and letting the aliens suicide themselves is the safest bet.

But again, a military unit just doesn't do enough, other than helping to explore a bit and maybe getting some additional resource pods. Because why kill aliens at that point? Doesn't help you at all. A military unit on its own just isn't good at helping you develop your empire. And the few situations where it might be useful are so rare that you can't really bet on getting a suited location. If we were to choose our loadout AFTER landing, then it might be a choice from time to time, but the way it is now... meh.

Biggest asset of rover is 3 moves, making it better for exploration than the actual explore.

So let's say I give you 10 Euro. If I give you another 10 Euro, are they somehow worth more just because you already have 10 Euro?

Doesn't work like this: if you have already 1 explorer, the 2nd one is not as valuable because you already have a unit capable of excavations. There is a smaller difference between having 1 explo + 1 soldier than having 1 explo OR 1 soldier. There is indeed a diminished return on having more than 1 explorer, albeit I think than having 3 explo is a minimum on a standard map.

 

[Ryika]

You can't equate a multi-faceted unit that has a variety of effects on gameplay to a single cash note. Analogies are bad at the best of times, and that's a terrible one

And yet you still fail to show how getting a second explorer somehow makes it more useful than getting an explorer when you don't have any.

Military units are useful; they have a use. Sometimes more than one use. They're not always used for attacking AI factions either; Aliens and Stations both require military attention at times. Just because you can't use them to dominate an AI faction doesn't make them useless. Utility isn't a binary rating; there are degrees of usefulness.

Yes, and you still haven't shown how military units provide any benefit that can keep up with kickstarting your economy like the two I mentioned can.

I mean, heck, I've made my argument. You're unlikely to agree, so I'm just going to move on after this.

Jokes on me I guess... for arguing with you although you had already shown in that other thread that you have no problem defending a position by using vague language and pseudo-arguments even though you clearly haven't got the experience to really know what you're talking about. So yeah, let's move on.

Biggest asset of rover is 3 moves, making it better for exploration than the actual explore.

Yes, that part of the comment was only about fighting aliens. Overall performance and usefulness is of course better.

Doesn't work like this: if you have already 1 explorer, the 2nd one is not as valuable because you already have a unit capable of excavations. There is a smaller difference between having 1 explo + 1 soldier than having 1 explo OR 1 soldier. There is indeed a diminished return on having more than 1 explorer, albeit I think than having 3 explo is a minimum on a standard map.

I'd actually argue against that. ^^ Having a bunch of explorers and hope for free affinities and other stuff is certainly a valid option, but there are a lot of other options - I couldn't even fit 3 Explorers into my main strategy and I still manage to win on turn ~210/220 or so. Exploration is useful, but with the lack of natural wonders and with the very low interactivity between civilizations really seeing the whole map doesn't seem to be a "must-have" anymore. But of course I play without delayed starts, so the overall yields the explorers would get me would already be lower.

 

[Gorbles]

It's not my fault you have to resort to personal attacks because you don't understand my points. Please, leave me alone in future, I'm tired of this harassment.

 

[Victus75]

Again, I think the difference is where both of y'all define "useful".

Gorb, I believe you see the soldier as a multi-faceted tool, varying in usage and degree depending on the circumstances of game play.
Ryika requires more quantifiable measures to determine what is useful. The soldier does not help kickstart your early economy/production, so therefore is not useful.

Personally I will lean towards Ryika's point of view here, as if I choose the worker or tech to start off with, it is a more consistent benefit to me than picking a soldier. If said soldier is sitting around not doing anything later on in the game (except to maybe contribute to military might so the AI won't DOW you), it can be seen as an unused tool and therefore not nearly as useful as other options.

I prefer consistency over a possible situational benefit at best.

 

[keldaur]

If you are trying to play the cargo for long games, sure, it sucks. If you are planning to rush, it's worth it since workers are cheaper to produce and the scouting benefits you more in the short term. Get scanveging and the free affinity level from might afterwards and use scanveging to get very early tier 2 gunners.

It works also on apollo if you are not playing big maps, otherwise you will fall behind in tech and production on midgame too much.

 

[LORD ORION]

Again, I think the difference is where both of y'all define "useful".

Gorb, I believe you see the soldier as a multi-faceted tool, varying in usage and degree depending on the circumstances of game play.
Ryika requires more quantifiable measures to determine what is useful. The soldier does not help kickstart your early economy/production, so therefore is not useful.

Personally I will lean towards Ryika's point of view here, as if I choose the worker or tech to start off with, it is a more consistent benefit to me than picking a soldier. If said soldier is sitting around not doing anything later on in the game (except to maybe contribute to military might so the AI won't DOW you), it can be seen as an unused tool and therefore not nearly as useful as other options.

I prefer consistency over a possible situational benefit at best.

Just to add something quantifiable.

Picking up an extra early resource pod with the soldier adds no benefit early in the game.
You'll get energy, science, culture or a solar collector maybe 3-4 turns faster then you could dive the scout over... this does not reduce the burden on city production.

Even if you manage to snipe your 1st virtue from pods, none of the 1st picks produce any immediate results. Prosperity, knowledge and Industry are 10% bonuses, and you won't be getting to 10 output in any of those areas for a few turns, and those come from buildings and tile development (which, unsurprisingly is why workers and buildings are a better early choice). Might, it does allow your soldier to level up faster... but again, a plain soldier is barely a match for one alien and when gaining veterancy levels, choosing the heal over combat stats just keeps your wheels grinding. You'll gain nearly 0 benefit from scavenging until you have several units that can support each other killing alien units.

If you had 2 veteran soldiers though, stomping aliens to low health in preparation for scavenging and extermination quest becomes far more manageable. You can double team an alien unit twice, withdraw to heal, and have a couple aliens ready like this to farm for when you do unlock scavenging... which allows you to wrack up some science points while pushing to a nest.

Also, same deal with enemy scouts sniping excavation spots, if it is a 5 turn excavation, you will rarely push them off in time even with a soldier and a scout. 2 veteran soldiers? Scout is dead in 3 turns sometimes 2.

 

[Gorbles]

Again, I think the difference is where both of y'all define "useful".

Gorb, I believe you see the soldier as a multi-faceted tool, varying in usage and degree depending on the circumstances of game play.
Ryika requires more quantifiable measures to determine what is useful. The soldier does not help kickstart your early economy/production, so therefore is not useful.

Personally I will lean towards Ryika's point of view here, as if I choose the worker or tech to start off with, it is a more consistent benefit to me than picking a soldier. If said soldier is sitting around not doing anything later on in the game (except to maybe contribute to military might so the AI won't DOW you), it can be seen as an unused tool and therefore not nearly as useful as other options.

I prefer consistency over a possible situational benefit at best.

I completely agree that a Worker is worth more by comparison, I even said as much in earlier posts (establishing why most of the other options are better by default).

Hence why I was suggesting units better than a single Soldier as an alternative, because then they provide more of a coherent benefit to any early-game strat. you may wish to run.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, I think an extra explorer or a rover would definitely be an improvement over the soldier you currently get.

 

[Alkaid]

I don't see the need for arguing the differences of opinion about this option, as both have pretty good and correct points in their own right.

I agree the worker or having Pioneering at the start are still the best options, and soldier is probably the least helpful option for general use and whatnot. However, I do see how it could be used effectively. (And remember I still agree it's probably the worst cargo option, don't bite my head off please)

- Extra "scout" to gather resource pods, which is pretty nice
- If you want to try going Might early on, it would help getting started with attacking aliens and nests faster
- Gives you an extra unit towards dealing with early war
- On a small map you may have closer neighbors than usual, meaning more likely to face early DOW

On low difficulties, okay, sure. On Deity you can't really attack until you get at least affinity 4 or, so what use are those military units?

This is not true at all. Playing purely Apollo, I've had a number of very early wars, so an extra soldier would help in those situations. As soon as you've upgraded to gunners from affinity 2 you're able to take on a close AI and even take their capital with a handful of units. Affinity 3 you can have Armor with are stronger than the marines but depending on the war you may not be able to pump many out in time, and you'd want to focus on Gunners anyway(I recommend at least 4 gunners to take a city at a fast pace for that stage in the game).

I think it's similar to how artists are imbalanced as a better pick than the other options for their category, while pioneering or worker is the same for this selection. They absolutely give more consistent and general benefits.

It's just that the soldier still isn't crap despite that. Instead it can have its general uses as stated, though again not as consistently useful at the start, or it can also fit into other strategies. Everybody and their mother goes for prosperity followed by industry off the bat at the moment, but a soldier would specifically give a big benefit for anyone trying might early on for helping get that science from aliens rolling in faster.

Nobody's saying it's the best cargo option, since it isn't. It's just it does have it's uses, especially if you specifically pick it for reasons such as the above. No need for anybody to fight.

 

[Elz Majesto]

The thread is about how sucky the Weapons Cargo load out is. I think everyone here agrees it's the weakest link.
Instead of giving "1" "free" unit, the game should give us 3 "Maintenance Free" units to get the ball rolling on nest clearing and alien extinction. With 3 extra units, you can easily scout, and reliably pick up enough pods to hit 1-2 virtues, grab scavenging (Because why go with the firepower if your not gonna grab Might) and the "+25 energy, +60 Science" virtue and you should be able to grab up the inner techs at a very comfortable pace.

On average you will see about 4 Nest in your vicinity, and at least 10 alien units. Just by clearing out the native fauna you can easily net yourself 320 science, enough to help propel you along your tech que. And this isn't even factoring in Kraken, which are the easiest 52 science you can get in the game!

Note:
This is not a Reliable strategy for Diety, nor is it meant to be. This is just a suggestion on how to buffer a weak (and sad) load out.
Units:
Rover, Gunner, Marine
Or pick three from R, G, M.

 

[Ryika]

This is not true at all. Playing purely Apollo, I've had a number of very early wars, so an extra soldier would help in those situations. As soon as you've upgraded to gunners from affinity 2 you're able to take on a close AI and even take their capital with a handful of units.

Yeah, I was probably wrong about affinity4, but still... even in a scenario where you plan to do early wars, wouldn't you still prefer the free worker? It seems to me that even in when rushing for an attack the worker provides enough additional production (even without titanium) to basically pay for the soldier while also helping the city grow.

And a bit off-topic: Would you mind outlining your general strategy? I'd like to try out some early wars without having to start from scratch.

 

[megabearsfan]

I would actually much prefer that the Weapons Arsenal provide either

a.) a free soldier AND a Ranger or Combat Rover (preferably a Ranger),
b.) a free Marine instead of a soldier (free upgraded unit, so it's stronger than other units at the start),
c.) a free Repair Facility in first city (so instead of a free unit, get a discount on units built in the city).

 

[LordBaal]

It would be better if it gave a barrack alongside one or two soldier units.

 

[Alkaid]

Yeah, I was probably wrong about affinity4, but still... even in a scenario where you plan to do early wars, wouldn't you still prefer the free worker? It seems to me that even in when rushing for an attack the worker provides enough additional production (even without titanium) to basically pay for the soldier while also helping the city grow.

And a bit off-topic: Would you mind outlining your general strategy? I'd like to try out some early wars without having to start from scratch.

Yes I'd probably still prefer the worker in general just considering early warring. However I don't think the fact it helps add toward your potential army is the sole reason to take it, so I wouldn't choose it purely because I wanted to get into a fight with the AI early. Rather it's a package deal for the fact it can be used against aliens and to help gather pods at the start. I really think it's best taken for working with might's alien hunting virtues to fight aliens as soon as possible and get a boost in science and energy.

It's only worth picking if you really plan to try and utilize it, and if you do so then I think it's still the lesser choice but at least it's usable. I definitely agree it could use a buff to give at least something like 2 soldiers or a soldier + ranger to really make that whole strategy more viable.

--
And sure, to not go too off topic I'll try to keep it short in that it's not usually my main goal so I'm not sure it's a real strategy. I don't try to get into a fight super early since most of the time I enjoy growing my empire and getting buildings/wonders done for a while. I fight early if the AI is either really close to me and taking up good land/resources nearby or seems like they'll attack me instead if I leave them alone too long.

Basically get at the very least 4 rangers and 2-3 soldiers and wait until you get affinity 2 to upgrade into gunners. You can take a 30-ish defense city reliably in 2 turns with that if all 3-4 gunners can shoot it at a time. Unless they AI wants to attack you extremely early the AI usually likes to send its free rovers and whatever else it makes towards aliens and nests if they have any nearby, at least on Apollo. That plus any possible miasma can help both chip away their units' hp for you and possibly keep them distracted/away from their city. Unless the terrain is really awful or their units are all between you, you can pretty easily take their city within a few turns with that kind of little army. If needed you can usually take out their units pretty fast with that many gunners as long as you let them come to you before getting in city range. No virtues or anything more specific put towards it.

As long as you can make enough units and attack them before they out-affinity you/can spam tacjets in their city, it works pretty well. Yesterday I took out Brasilia's 2 cities by turn 60 despite a forest and miasma slowing things down(had to make a few more units since the walk to the city was also farther then I usually bother with, but I wanted his 9 Firaxite!), and in another game on a dwarf map Russia landed way too close to my capital and I wiped him out before he even made a second city. As long as they're close enough it usually works well.

 

[Strategist83]

Free Soldier isn't/wasn't too bad, actually. Like others have said, it's a free additional Scout that can pick up pods. These extra pods you'll find could actually be worth more than the extra improvements a free Worker would create, at least short-term.

The really dumb thing is they patched the Explorer and doubled its combat strength from 3 to 6, an awful decision (making the Explorer so strong it's like a mini-military unit). The difference pre-patch was that the Explorer could build excavations but was also fragile while the free Soldier was a much tougher exploration unit. So yes, with the patch the value of the Soldier pick has diminished.

 

[tedeviatings]

Free Soldier isn't/wasn't too bad, actually. Like others have said, it's a free additional Scout that can pick up pods. These extra pods you'll find could actually be worth more than the extra improvements a free Worker would create, at least short-term.

I want to say this is true cause it seems to be for most people. But some people start out with free worker and then build a scout first. And to me that's just plain better than starting with a free soldier. There might be a couple of games where turn 1 soldier is better than turn 8 scout but even then it should not be worth as much as a turn 1 worker. And a lot of the time turn 8 scout is better anyways, even without the worker.

 

[FreedomFighter]

What if it give us a Marine instead of Soldier? I mean, hey. . .we took the weapons cargo after all. Shouldn't the trooper that come with us be better prepare than usual? Soldier is just. . .look, a dude in astronaut suit with automatic rifle.

 

[Kutuzov]

Interesting. It's not a pick I would make but if it wasn't included in the game, folks would be complaining that the couldn't take an extra soldier with them If folks want to pick a soldier, they can. No controversy here.