Is it me, or does Weapon Arsenal for cargo really suck

[4N4C0ND4]

Interesting. It's not a pick I would make but if it wasn't included in the game, folks would be complaining that the couldn't take an extra soldier with them If folks want to pick a soldier, they can. No controversy here.

Well, problem is balance: starting with an extra worker or with pioneering researched is an interesting decision.

Continental survey or tactical scanner are both great in their different fields.

Arguably, an extra soldier early sucks and is generally underpowered. I'm personally not fine with that, I prefer to brainstorm a bit and try to balance things out rather than having sup optimal choices.

 

[Kutuzov]

Well, problem is balance: starting with an extra worker or with pioneering researched is an interesting decision.

No argument from me there. I wouldn't pick the soldier. But some folks might want to, sub-optimal or not and they are allowed to do so.

 

[Ryika]

No argument from me there. I wouldn't pick the soldier. But some folks might want to, sub-optimal or not and they are allowed to do so.

Sure, having that option is superior to not having that option, but nobody wants to remove that option anyway (so you're right, there's no controversy regarding that). People are arguing that it would be even BETTER if that option did enough to actually make it a valid choice for people who want to play more optimal. That's the "controversy": Is it really enough to have an option that is suboptimal or shouldn't Firaxis make the effort to bring all options on about the same level? (Although it's not really a controversy either, there are people who say: "Yes, absolutely!" and people who say: "Well, that option is already okay for people who don't play for efficency." while not really bringing an argument against it. Doesn't seem like anyone is against buffing the weak perks.)

 

[LORD ORION]

Heh, I'm still not done with this topic.

Next question.
Just how valuable is the physics tech to you? (The one that unlocks Ranger, Observatory and Launch Complex)

When do you normally unlock this tech?

Yes/No: Weapons Arsenal that grants 1x scout, 1x Soldier, 1x Ranger and Physics Tech unlocked is Overpowered?

 

[Gorbles]

Stupidly overpowered in a way that can't be described.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Physics is an unimportant tech for me, but giving it away for free is way too strong. Not necessarily for military reasons, but it makes Biowell rush WAY more powerful.

 

[Acken]

Physics alone wouldn't be too strong. Unless for some reason you'd rush biowell without taking pioneering it would be on par with free pioneering (16science difference but less immediate use).

But Physics + ranger + soldier + scout is way too much compared to other options.

Weapon arsenal could certainly use a buff.

 

[Gorbles]

Physics alone outranks the existing free tech (and overlaps with the design to some extent). Why would it not be too strong?

I'd support it if the whole bonus set was overhauled. That way a tech + another bonus could be balanced against each other (i.e. by buffing the free embarkation tech with something else).

 

[Ryika]

Physics is a bit more expensive than Pioneering, but the tech itself is way weaker. It only gives the ranger that can't really be used for much at that point, a science building that you can't use at that point at all and the launch complex which may very well be a contender for the most useless building in the game. The biggest plus is probably, as GAGA Extrem already said, that it's on the path to Biowells. (Although, who knows, maybe an affinity0-rush would become somewhat viable?)

Compared without the units I'd pick Pioneering 100% of the time, as the direct bonus is just WAY stronger, you can't get your first trade route up any faster.

But 2 units on top of that... well, I guess that would be somewhat overpowered. A soldier + Physics may actually already be enough. You still fall behind early on if you can't use that soldier to get a ton of stuff, but the fact that you also get closer to biowells would have that economic advantage that the cargo is missing right now. Although balancing it by "forcing" players to go down a specific route (if you don't want to go for biowells, you're still not going anywhere economically) may not be the best choice.

 

[LORD ORION]

but it makes Biowell rush WAY more powerful.

That was the idea, does getting that free tech make it viable to go down the left side of the tree (robotics and biowell) instead of cognition?

Stupidly overpowered in a way that can't be described.

I was hoping for specific ways that combo could be abused.

eg: Starting with a ranger and scout... and completing pioneering just before your 1st colony from the colony initiative virtue is placed to get your free soldier unit. That can happen as early as turn 15 considering pods and African Union as they are now.

You still fall behind early on if you can't use that soldier to get a ton of stuff, but the fact that you also get closer to biowells would have that economic advantage that the cargo is missing right now

Scenario:
Starting Options: 1x Ranger and 1x Scout for units and Physics Tech Completed start.
Add 1x Soldier from colony initiative, and build a second ranger.

You have 1 soldier and 2x rangers early which can easily mow down aliens for science from Scavenging, and the option after that to pick liberation army if there is an opportunity to pick off a colony before it becomes a city.

eg: 1st 3 virtues = colony initiative, then
Might Tree -> Adaptive Tactics -> Military Industrial Complex -> Survivalism -> *Free Pick* Scavenging
Next pick -> Maybe liberation Army

 

[Ryika]

Scenario:
Starting Options: 1x Ranger and 1x Scout for units and Physics Tech Completed start.
Add 1x Soldier from colony initiative, and build a second ranger.

You have 1 soldier and 2x rangers early which can easily mow down aliens for science from Scavenging, and the option after that to pick liberation army if there is an opportunity to pick off a colony before it becomes a city.

eg: 1st 3 virtues = colony initiative, then
Might Tree -> Adaptive Tactics -> Military Industrial Complex -> Survivalism -> *Free Pick* Scavenging
Next pick -> Maybe liberation Army

How much of that is really a bonus that you don't also get with Free Pioneering though? The trade route you get very early basically allows you to get out an additional soldier (or two, if titanium is available in the capital) while at the same time giving a bonus to food and production for everything that comes afterwards.

And when it comes to farming aliens I personally do prefer a squad of melee units. Rangers just don't do much damage support at that point, but a squad of 3 soldiers can do that indefinite fortify-farming stuff. And when taking Outposts, I'd actually prefer 3x melee, too - they take an flatland-outpost in 2 turns before the AI will even show up, which I think doesn't work with 2 Melee + 1 Range.

But for my taste that's really too much theory. I'll make myself a mod with these bonuses tomorrow and just do some testing.

 

[Victus75]

Also: many times I'll have LOS issues with the Rangers (fighting in forests, etc). They have weak melee defense and so I tend to keep them behind the Soldiers, but if you can't get them on a hill they can be a waste.

 

[Acken]

Physics alone outranks the existing free tech (and overlaps with the design to some extent). Why would it not be too strong?

Because the tech has no strong immediate use while pioneering does.

The fact that it unlocks bionics doesn't even matter. If you're in a rush toward bionics you still won't queue it up on turn 0 and get pioneering like everybody else.

The only thing you win is 16science and the ability to produce ranger instead of depots/settlers.

But anyway I would find the idea lazy and would still pick Pioneering or Worker over it.

 

[Kutuzov]

If you want to buff it up, I'd suggest adding the first Might virtue to sweeten the pot. That gives you +50% experience earned from combat so it's not a small thing.

 

[Gorbles]

Because the tech has no strong immediate use while pioneering does.

The fact that it unlocks bionics doesn't even matter. If you're in a rush toward bionics you still won't queue it up on turn 0 and get pioneering like everybody else.

The only thing you win is 16science and the ability to produce ranger instead of depots/settlers.

But anyway I would find the idea lazy and would still pick Pioneering or Worker over it.

I think my biggest issue is laziness wrt. design as well, to be honest.

Kututov has an interesting idea r.e. Virtues. Is it even possible to gift a specific Virtue (I don't think so)?

 

[Ryika]

Should probably be quite doable with lua, right? That version would still not have any economic advantage though, is being able to attack 10 turns earlier really worth it? You'd still need to produce the units for that attack, and you'd need to produce them even earlier, which would probably stagger your empire even more.

Why not add something like 25% (random number) of killed units strength as gold/culture/science for the first 100 (again a random number) turns? Direct benefit for your empire if you're active with your military.

 

[Erebras]

I believe Weapon Arsenal is fine as is, and would be overpowered adding anything to it as some have suggested. I think substituting a Combat Rover instead of a Soldier would be an understandable change. (Good idea, whoever suggested that.)

In the early game, you expect planetary pioneers to not be able to field advanced weaponry without infrastructure in place; simply recycling the hull into helmets won't cut it. So having a Soldier unit at the start makes sense.

My point is that having a unit with reasonable defense that, if used properly by not merely fortifying it at home, will reap nice rewards in energy, science, and culture depending on the resource pods they recover, and help scout out future base sites and future archaeological sites and sites to avoid (canyons and alien nests) will make explorations, expansion, and expeditions all the more efficient.

The moment you build a second colony, the quest completion gives you an instant second Soldier. Without actively devoting production to any military units at all, you still end up with two free military units, to be used to keep troublesome pests off your borders and contribute to the greater good by +0.5 positive health if you have the right Tier I military virtue.

Certainly, once you run out of resource pods on your landmass they have less utility as explorers, but they could still be used to guard artifact sites from rival explorers and so on and so forth.

I'm not suggesting that a Soldier has more usefulness than a free Worker or Pioneering, but I am suggesting it is just as useful.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

I believe Weapon Arsenal is fine as is, and would be overpowered adding anything to it as some have suggested. I think substituting a Combat Rover instead of a Soldier would be an understandable change. (Good idea, whoever suggested that.)

In the early game, you expect planetary pioneers to not be able to field advanced weaponry without infrastructure in place; simply recycling the hull into helmets won't cut it. So having a Soldier unit at the start makes sense.

My point is that having a unit with reasonable defense that, if used properly by not merely fortifying it at home, will reap nice rewards in energy, science, and culture depending on the resource pods they recover, and help scout out future base sites and future archaeological sites and sites to avoid (canyons and alien nests) will make explorations, expansion, and expeditions all the more efficient.

The moment you build a second colony, the quest completion gives you an instant second Soldier. Without actively devoting production to any military units at all, you still end up with two free military units, to be used to keep troublesome pests off your borders and contribute to the greater good by +0.5 positive health if you have the right Tier I military virtue.

Certainly, once you run out of resource pods on your landmass they have less utility as explorers, but they could still be used to guard artifact sites from rival explorers and so on and so forth.

I'm not suggesting that a Soldier has more usefulness than a free Worker or Pioneering, but I am suggesting it is just as useful.

Too bad the red part is arguably the reason of this thread: most folks here would agree that pioneering or free worker is 99% of the time better than a free soldier.

Why?

Because you already start with an explorer, so another (bad) scouting unit loses benefit.

Because a free worker means more hammers early and a second explorer sooner, that best a soldier in all areas in the early game.

Because free pioneering means a faster trader depot, with moar hammers and fast trade roads (preferred opening by the "best" players around) which are keys for the early game.

On the other hand, you have a unit that cost energy, would probably be stuck by 1tile moves 8 times out of 10, and won't do much but sitting on a site (luckily) or in a city past turn 50.

I'm not a great fan of min/maxing myself, but if you want to compare starting options, just try the same game with a starting soldier/with a starting worker. Compare the two (energy/t, science/t, culture/t, numbers buildings) and see for yourself.

Sadly a lone soldier just don't cut it

 

[Erebras]

Your points are well-taken. They're good points, so why not? Variables factor into the mix/maxing, although unlike CivIII, I've yet to see a substandard starting location for anyone, but I want to point out that presuming you get a productive starting location, such as forest or titanium or whatnot, you certainly can build an explorer or a decent military unit (who starts with combat rovers? nobody.) But variables factor in. A badly timed siege worm or alien nest nearby can reduce the worker's utility.

I myself just played (still playing) a Soyuz level game against mostly-A.I. opponents with frenzied aliens. I was able to recover six or so resource pods and locate three crashed satellites before the other settlers touched down. Nitpicky, yes, but it was gratifying to get those "goody huts" before the computer's explorers did, boosting my energy reserves, planting two solar collectors in my capitol (one was wasted due to failure to launch), but allowing me to build a trade depot in one turn and choosing a second virtue before initiating diplomacy on a grand scale even became an option.

I've only been playing for a few weeks, but when I first started I chose the 100 energy option (due to being in CivIII mode, no doubt), but after a few false starts realized a worker is much more useful, especially as a PanAsian player, so I completely see where the ones who think Weapon Arsenal is sub-par are coming from.

I suppose my eagerness to explore and recover pods fuels my decision.

 

[Erebras]

I suppose I overlooked another aspect: game balance.

If you beef up Weapon Arsenal by adding more soldiers or combat rovers or additional experience perks, what affect does it have on the computer A.I. on higher difficulty levels? If Brasilia began with a small army, and he landed near a neighbor whose main strength was thoughts of peace and love, would the computer calculate an easy conquest and declare an early war, eliminating a faction almost right from the start?

I don't know how all this works. My guess is that it becomes exponential on higher difficulties, but the ones with a greater grasp of transcendental mathematics probably already know or realize that having more units doesn't make any difference against people with productive workers or thriving trade depots.