[R&F] Is it worth building Temple of Artemis if you can?

[Leathaface]

I feel that it would be better to spend production on your first settler rather than building ToA, due to the benefits of founding your second city and getting citizens there.

I just don't feel like it would be worthwhile to build ToA. Now if ToA arrived a bit later when you have 3/4 cities, that would be cool.

 

[Arent11]

I feel that it would be better to spend production on your first settler rather than building ToA, due to the benefits of founding your second city and getting citizens there.

I just don't feel like it would be worthwhile to build ToA. Now if ToA arrived a bit later when you have 3/4 cities, that would be cool.

I experimented a little bit with a 6 city "tall" approach, just to challenge myself. In that case ToA, audience chamber, wonder spam etc. make sense. But it is basically for culture wins, if you surround your theatre districts with wonders to get +3 adjacency.

Even in that case ToA is not really decisive. Another settler or unit to defend is, in my humble opinion, generally better.

 

[sixty4half]

Oh man, did you ever send me down the rabbit hole. Looked at the civ 6 wiki for this temple. Saw the name Herostratus and looked him up. Then looked up damnatio memoriae which led me to this really weird Roman Emporor named Elagabalus. Then I spent an hour reading about this guy. His life was crazy. How you gonna hand the keys to the Ferrari (the Roman Empire) to a 14 year old boy?


I agree with Arent. Food Housing and Amenities just aren't worth the opportunity cost.
What do you do if your neighbor declares war while you're building ToA in your 1 city?
Are you okay with losing it to the AI?

 

[Sostratus]

Even in that case ToA is not really decisive. Another settler or unit to defend is, in my humble opinion, generally better.

Because it has to be built next to a camp, often early AI cities won't have a camp ready to put to work. So sometimes it's open for a quite a good long while.
The temple gives +4 food, +3 housing, which is very nice for boosting a city, but it really really depends on the amenities.

Most of us in SP don't really need them at the time the temple could be built because you can coast on starting luxuries then pick up Colosseum and be swimming in amenities for another hundred turns. I think the effect might be more interesting if it, say, gave an amenity and something else for the qualifying improvements- +faith, or +production, or whatever. Then it would have more of a niche vs the Colosseum of the amenity side and the Hanging Gardens on the growth side.

Sometimes I pick it up if I can for a nice spot, but usually i'll have a couple cities out before I place it down.

Does anyone know if
1) you have to control the tile for the bonus
2) if the amenities are applied to the tiles themselves or if they all go to the ToA city?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

How you gonna hand the keys to the Ferrari (the Roman Empire) to a 14 year old boy?

MRGA.

I have found that (at least in the games I've tried) that it's still been available after putting down a city or two. Whether that makes the difference as to people thinking it's work it, I don't know.

 

[sixty4half]

I just don't understand the Temple. The food I get. Artemis is the goddess of the hunt so bonus food makes sense.

But why +3 housing and amenities? I know they really shied away from % boosts in 6 compared to ciV which was all about % boosts. But I really prefered the bonus production to ranged units that came with ciV version of ToA. +4 food and +15% (or 25%) boost to ranged unit production would have been real nice, even if they capped the ranged unit production to Slingers/Archers/Crossbows (non-gunpowder ranged), I'd be fine with that.

Is there something about the real ToA that I'm missing, that would warrant bonus housing and amenities as an in-game representation?

 

[MaryKB]

Temple of Artemis kind of reminds me of Hanging Gardens from Civilization 5, like you can build it to get a nice boost to your city for early growth. I don't really worry too much about this one, but oh I do feel it can be nice if you have lots of resources around for extra Amenities, and if you like really want a big early city. I've built it before and it really does look nice on your map also.

@sixty4half maybe her temple represents you having a hunter culture, so a lot of your people are out in tents or something living in your countryside, and you have more room in your city?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I feel that it would be better to spend production on your first settler rather than building ToA, due to the benefits of founding your second city and getting citizens there.

I just don't feel like it would be worthwhile to build ToA. Now if ToA arrived a bit later when you have 3/4 cities, that would be cool.

I think this pretty much sums it up. Temple of Artemis is all about the extra amenities from nearby camps, pastures, and plantations. With enough of these nearby, it becomes a rare combination of both extra housing and the amenities to support it, so has value near term and long term.

The problem is the opportunity cost of building it and the Builder charges used up to make the camps, pastures, and plantations necessary to get the +1 amenities. On Deity (standard speed), the earliest I've observed the AI build the Temple of Artemis is T35, and the average build turn (over 11 observations) is T51. In that time frame, you're almost certainly better off chopping in another Settler instead, or chopping in a wonder that helps you win quickly, like Oracle or Great Library. Or I suppose what a lot of people would do is chop in an army and then go take the AI city that built Temple of Artemis.

I was shocked that Temple of Artemis made it to 4th on the Wonder elimination thread, as it seems like something that will slow down victory rather than speed it up, but different people play the game differently. At lower difficulty levels you likely have a bigger window to build the Temple of Artemis, which lowers the opportunity cost.

 

[Dragabond]

I've built the Temple of Artemis a few times, and generally only when doing so will grant me in excess of 5 or 6 amenities. For that, it can basically handle any amenity problems you may (likely never) have. I wouldn't prioritize it, though. Then again, that's my attitude toward all of the early wonders. They're nice to have, sure, but unless you're making a fevered dash to get them and clinch it before someone else does, it just amounts to wasted effort.

I prefer it that way, to how ground shatteringly game changing some of the wonders could have been in V. In VI, even missing out on the wonders that I always go for (any of the ones that grant an extra policy slot) doesn't fundamentally change anything. I used to burn down entire empires over the Forbidden City in V (primarily because I hated the world congress and didn't want the AI to have anything like a leg up).

 

[UWHabs]

I wouldn't build it before my first settler, but a decent ToA strategy I've used is to basically rush to Magnus, and then chop in the ToA instead of an army. If you have a site for it that can give the 5 or so amenities, it's pretty cheap that it can be worth it to chop that instead of your army. But more often than not, I'll wait to gauge the world. If I notice that stonehenge and the Hanging Gardens have both been built really early, then I'll skip ToA assuming that an AI is wonder-obsessed. But if they are also slow at being built, then I can likely assume that the AI are not wonder-happy, and can likely try to get it (or the Pyramids) in at a more leisurely pace. I've had cases where I've already chopped in my army and taken out a neighbour yet some of those early wonders are still available. I know one game I think I built ToA so late that it was a single Magnus chop to build it.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

ToA is surely situational (see images).

Spoiler Xian :

Spoiler Pokrovka :

I built it next to Xian for the +12 amenities, but am hesitant to build it next to Pokrovka as the amenity boost is low, and more to the point, what would having +4 food and +3 housing get me? More population, +2 amenities and a lackluster production? The area is devoid of hills to leverage the extra food and housing into mining districts/production. I think it synergizes exceptionally well with a hilly area with an encampment district for building high quality units with experience point bonuses from stable/armory/military academy. Also can create settlers very quickly in such a city due to food & housing bonuses. Throw in a Magnus with provision and it’s even quicker.

But when I find the right space for the wonder, I always try to build it.

EDIT: As to the original post. I've never built it before the 1st settler. Getting a settler out is of critical importance.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It often stays around for a while, so yea, if you can get a few amenities from it.

If you have space to expand, you could build it, or if you're like Rome and can break out anyways if you feel like it.

 

[WillowBrook]

It's definitely situational, but if I can get a big handful of amenities out if it and put it in a city that benefits from growth, I may go for it. But as others have said, I wouldn't build it before my first settler, and I tend to do it on lower levels (king or prince) and/or when I have fewer opponents in the game.

 

[playshogi]

Like most wonders, it's better to capture it, if you can. Like this ToA northeast of Kigali with 10 eligible resources in range.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Like most wonders, it's better to capture it, if you can. Like this ToA northeast of Kigali with 10 eligible resources in range.
View attachment 499601

It looks like the Kongo campaign you mentioned from the GotW thread worked out for you ;-).

 

[kb27787]

I find its the easiest wonder to get the drama eureka with... it is also one of the safest wonders to build (archery tech) and sometimes a Godsend (think plains hill starts with forest deer tiles worth a juicy 4 production, but no food resources where your cap would have trouble growing past size 3 otherwise)

Better than all the other early wonders for sure. But perhaps not worth skipping the settler for if there is a nice NW nearby.

 

[sixty4half]

Better than all the other early wonders for sure. But perhaps not worth skipping the settler for if there is a nice NW nearby.

Surely you don't mean it's better than Pyramids.

 

[acluewithout]

Some Wonders always just feel more fun.

ToA is one of them. I don’t beeline it. But man I like getting it. Same with Colossus and Lighthouse and the one that gives the military card slot. Totally not worth the effort. But so cool.

I always feel disappointed with myself when I build Pyramids or Colosseum. I hate how Rhur is a wonder - it should be a district (renamed of course).

I’m absolutely Petra’d out. Chicken Pizza and Tundra and Ice Petra are the way forward.

So. ToA. No, not worth it. But also, totally worth it.

 

[Disgustipated]

I never build Chichen mentioned above. I'm going to chop all my rainforest anyways, so why bother. Who needs rainforest.

I think I built Artemis two times. Both times were "later", when the AI didn't build this wonder for whatever reason. And I think they were Prince games (which the AI still builds this wonder pretty fast usually). I wouldn't even attempt it on anything higher than King. I probably had 3 cities out when I built them. It's a nice wonder, but not that great to build, more fun to conquer. Although the AI usually doesn't place it optimally. There's just too much other stuff to do in the early game.

I would say it may be worth the risk if you are on a smallish island/continent by yourself.

Surely you don't mean it's better than Pyramids.

I consider this wonder more of a classical era wonder and slightly later than the ancient wonders. There's usually a decent shot at getting this one, and you can get some cities up first.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Surely you don't mean it's better than Pyramids.

I'm in the minority here - see the Wonder Elimination thread for the love many people have for the Pyramids - but if available I'd personally prefer a Wonder like Temple of Artemis that provides more of something you can't otherwise get (Amenities) than the Pyramids, which makes it cheaper to get something I can get as much of as I want (Builder charges). Extra Amenities translate directly into more Culture and Science (and every other yield). Cheaper Builder charges are obviously better, but since R&F, by the time I can build the Pyramids I also have access to as many Builder charges as I want when I want them.

Playstyle obviously is a big factor here. And Civ 6 is so forgiving it's tough to measure "which is better" since any reasonable approach will work. There's nothing wrong with Pyramids, but ToA would be great, too, if you didn't have to build it so darn early.

I never build Chichen mentioned above. I'm going to chop all my rainforest anyways, so why bother. Who needs rainforest.

I think I built Artemis two times. Both times were "later", when the AI didn't build this wonder for whatever reason. And I think they were Prince games (which the AI still builds this wonder pretty fast usually). I wouldn't even attempt it on anything higher than King. I probably had 3 cities out when I built them. It's a nice wonder, but not that great to build, more fun to conquer. Although the AI usually doesn't place it optimally. There's just too much other stuff to do in the early game.

I would say it may be worth the risk if you are on a smallish island/continent by yourself.

I consider this wonder more of a classical era wonder and slightly later than the ancient wonders. There's usually a decent shot at getting this one, and you can get some cities up first.

re your odds of getting the Temple of Artemis, here's the observed AI build times for this Wonder over the 11 test games I've completed so far:

T58
T47
T37
T85
T56
T42
T52
T35
T65
T54
T40

This is on Deity (standard speed, continents). You could expect to have more time to complete it on lower difficulty levels. Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, and Temple of Artemis are routinely the first three wonders the AI builds, usually but not always in that order. This is R&F post the latest patch.